Speaking Truth to Create ChangeA Yarn with Cecilia McKenzie

Intro Music / VoiceoverWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong, and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations Advocates Against Family Violence CEO Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing and community connection.

Kerry StainesWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. I respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I'm coming to you from today, the Gurung Gurung people, and pay my respects to Elders past and present, for they hold the memories, traditions and culture and hopes of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people. I recognise their continuing connection to our land, water and community. We're really excited today. We have Cecilia McKenzie joining us to talk about lived experience. Cecilia is a lived experience advocate. She has a role as the Aboriginal Policy Engagement Manager for Domestic Violence New South Wales. Cecilia is the Chair of the Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander Expert Reference Group in the Australian Capital Territory, or ACT, and is also on the board of WESNET. Thank you, Cecilia, for joining us today. If you could just tell us a little bit about yourself, your mob, and your Country, and then we might jump into some questions.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, awesome. Thanks, Kerry. I'm a very proud Wiradjuri woman. I was born in Wagga. I've got family all across the Riverina. I've spent a lot of my life on Ngunnawal Country, over in Yass, and also over in Goulburn. Now I live on a farm on Yuin Country and love it.

Kerry StainesSounds nice and peaceful.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, it's beautiful.

Kerry StainesAs I had a conversation with you when I saw you recently, we were talking about the role of lived experience and the valuable contribution it's making to our sector, and it got me thinking about how much does our audience understand or know about lived experience? Well, thank you so much for agreeing to come on to the podcast today. It's going to be really valuable for people to hear your perspective, and we know that you don't speak for everybody with a lived experience, but certainly I think to help us get a better understanding of how the lived experience can help influence policy and work with other people is really important. So if we just start with, you know, really having experienced family violence yourself and being open to sharing that with the public, when we use or hear the term lived experience, what does that mean?

Cecilia McKenzieWhen I think about lived experience, I actually think about the time that I was in the lived experience and thought to myself, are there people who are writing these policies? Are there people who are speaking on these topics that truly, genuinely understand? And I think where it lands is for the people who are having the real-time experience, knowing that there's people in the landscape who understand the nuance, who understand that deep, raw impact of domestic violence and the journey that it takes, really.

Kerry StainesYeah, so that really practical approach to be able to test when policy makers, as you were saying, if people are writing, do they actually really understand what it may take to leave, what you have to prepare and think about? And I guess you're challenging it from that point of view.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, because I think you can have sort of a conceptual, theoretical understanding of the topic and all of the frameworks and the different reports that are written about the experience. But unless you specifically had an experience of homelessness or, you know, navigating trauma, navigating systems that don't seem to see or understand you, you can't see it.

Kerry StainesOkay. So in terms of lived experience and policy, how does the lived experience voice, you've talked a little bit about the practical approach, but when you're sitting around the table, what does that look like in terms of bringing lived experience when you're having those policy discussions?

Cecilia McKenzieYou're able to unpack for people who, you know, are, you know, making policy decisions, writing policy papers, writing reports. You're able to kind of unpack for them in real time the practicalities of, of what it's like and how, not just how it feels, but just in terms of where, what safety in those environments look like, what real place-based support genuinely means, you know, because I think something that I strongly advocate for is, you know, I think people read the framework and, or they'll read the documents. And they think, you know, that sounds good and they'll package it up and it's a nice, finessed, elegant solution. But support, safety, feeling heard, seen and safe, looks very different for every individual. It's quite personal and being able to hear people where they're at, really, in a safe way.

Kerry StainesIn terms of bringing a cultural voice, because I know that you are not just, you don't just work in the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, you're also across mainstream and you have accepted a role that has some responsibility about advocating for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people in a number of ways. So how do you also, with that lens, I really understand what you're saying in terms of they're talking about policy. I guess, how do you bring culture into that conversation as well?

Cecilia McKenzieOh, for me, culture is at the core. And I think it's also something I advocate strongly for is that we're not just one homogenous group. It's very nuanced for our whole community. The experiences for me as an Aboriginal woman living in a regional area is very different from somebody living in regional and remote. And also colonisation has had a significant impact on our experience as Aboriginal people. Some people in our community are deeply connected to culture. They've grown up in culture. There's people such as myself who are proudly Aboriginal, but the impacts of domestic violence in my family, the impact of systems on my family and on my father really disconnected me from culture, disconnected my father. The very experience of domestic violence really pulled me away from community and culture. And as an Aboriginal woman, I know that's where my healing is. That's where my centre is. That's where my connection is. So it's a really powerful and potent tool, pulling an Aboriginal person away from culture to be able to minimise and marginalise them. And culture is where our spirits are quenched, really. And I think it's important to note that, you know, family violence is not an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander problem. This is a gender-based issue. And often we find ourselves in some of those conversations where we have to remind people that this is not a part of our culture.

Kerry StainesAnd in fact, it's the colonisation and the deterioration of our communities through colonisation that has, you know, introduced some of these issues. But yeah, overall, yeah, it's a gender-based issue for women more predominantly. And then obviously our over-representation in that is what's significant that we're disproportionately, you know, find ourselves in these situations.

Cecilia McKenzieThat's exactly right. Yeah, it's not our way. It's not... It's certainly not an Aboriginal issue. No.

Kerry StainesSo could you give me an example where lived experience has been used by government in the delivery of policy?

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, I was heavily involved in the task force for the implementation and review task force for the criminalisation of coercive control in New South Wales. A bit of history about my work experience. I've worked in the front line with my community for two decades, you know, in an array of different roles. As an Aboriginal health worker in identified AOD roles, juvenile justice case manager roles. I've had my own pretty complex experience of domestic violence. I became involved and really stepped into the advocacy space when I was involved in the implementation and review task force for the criminalisation of coercive control. So I sat on the lived experience reference group, the First Nations reference group and the non-government organisation reference group. And what was recognised in that process. So, you know, coercive control has been criminalised in, you know, Scotland overseas for a number of years. And I believe Australia, New South Wales, watched that process quite closely. And they didn't have a review mechanism. They sort of implemented it. They were quite mindful in what they do and what they recognised from sort of watching Scotland is that the awareness element prior to the legislation going live was actually really important. So for 18 months, I think it was about 18 months prior to coercive control being identified as criminal in New South Wales, there was an awareness campaign and I was quite heavily involved in that process. Did a lot of different media, shared my lived experience on a number of different platforms.

Kerry StainesAnd was that to, I guess, not only influence what the legislation had to cover, but to also hear from people about what the different forms of coercive control and how it could take effect?

Cecilia McKenzieVery much so. And it was about sort of, you know, they did some statistics prior to that legislation and the majority of New South Wales, the majority of the state identified domestic violence as physical violence. And after that awareness campaign, the awareness of, you know, that toolbox that is coercive control, that, you know, there is psychological, there's emotional abuse, there's financial abuse, that extended so people were able to understand, you know, what coercive control was.

Kerry StainesI could see how valuable it is to really make sure when we are in a position to influence legislation, that it encompasses what we need it to encompass, or else it's really hard then, because we know there's more gaps that will occur after the legislation. And I think they put in place, was there an 18 month review on that legislation?

Cecilia McKenzieYes. Yeah, they did, which I think is critical because what we're seeing, although there's that implementation and review element of it, you know, there's things that are coming out of the woodwork that weren't anticipated with, yeah.

Kerry StainesYeah, okay. And is that, when is that due?

Cecilia McKenzieI'll take that question on notice, Kerry.

Kerry StainesOkay, I was thinking it's probably coming up because I'm thinking... Yeah, okay.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, it must be soon. Yeah, okay.

Kerry StainesWhen a person with a lived experience is included in policy and system change, is the expectation that their experience is their own and is not representative of all people affected by family violence? Or how does it actually work?

Cecilia McKenzieLook, I think it comes down to how experienced and how trauma-informed, domestic violence-informed, how experience of working with, lived experience practitioners and leaders. I really think how successful and how useful lived experience is, is demonstrated in the scaffolding that is around them that is put in place when they're engaging and really the understanding of the person who's reaching to the person who has the lived experience of doing it, one, with sensitivity and care and empathy, but also really understanding what they're doing and why they want that information rather than kind of like wanting to unpack everything. Like what's the purpose? What's the purpose of this information?

Kerry StainesSo generally they're engaging with individuals about their personal experience to understand something. So the expectation isn't that you're talking for all people with lived experience and that they might be trying to understand a piece of the puzzle in some way.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, that's exactly right. And I think, you know, it's a feeling we're valuing lived experience in a different way when we're engaging in it in a different way and in more of an educated and informed way now. And I think for the practitioners ourselves, you know, it's something that evolves and you're learning in a process. Certainly how I show up now as a lived experience practitioner has changed from when I first came to the landscape.

Kerry StainesYeah, sure. Appreciate that. You know, experience in any area is often valuable. And look, I do know that lived experience is very valued for what it can bring, for all the reasons that you've said in terms of people, you can have a conceptual understanding, but a real understanding of some of those micro pieces that are often lost. They're the pieces that can, you know, break the link in the chain, for someone creating their own safe world. But yeah, thank you. One of the other questions I wanted to talk to you about was lived experience in terms of healing and recovery. And what do you see as the role of lived experience in healing and recovery?

Cecilia McKenzieHave you read Judith Herman's book, Trauma and Recovery?

Kerry StainesNo, I haven't.

Cecilia McKenzieOkay, it's a great book.

Kerry StainesI'm writing it down to add to my list.

Cecilia McKenzieIn the book, she really talks about the stages of recovery for a person who has a lived experience of trauma. So, you know, there's safety initially, and it's not linear. There's sort of the three phases of recovery: safety and stabilisation, remembrance and mourning, reconnection and integration. So she talks about those three distinct phases that, you know, you can slip in and out of sort of each phase. And, you know, safety and stabilisation isn't just about, you know, accommodation. It's not just about, like, your physical safety. It's about your emotional safety. It's about sort of your support scaffolding around you. For me, being involved as a lived experience advocate, if I'm going to be honest, has been really challenging at times. It's been incredibly rewarding. And in that, the reconnection and integration, and I think it's really important that we support people in this work so that you know when and how to lean in and lean out. But, you know, sharing your truth and supporting others to share their truth is really potent and powerful in your healing experience. But I know on my journey, you know, I've been homeless. I've experienced real pain when systems and statutory bodies haven't kind of met me where I'm at and really understood what trauma can do to a person. And not feeling seen, but also not being able to express myself and not being able to speak. Knowing what I want people to see and hoping that people can understand, but not actually having the capacity to articulate my needs. When I kind of saw other women, when I saw other people who kind of went from that phase of not being able to express themselves, being completely sabotaged by trauma and seeing them come out the other side and being able to use their voice, that was really motivating, mobilising and important to me. So it's been important to me, but also as I've kind of evolved on this journey, learning to be careful with myself and very mindful of the impacts on my nervous system.

Kerry StainesThere's a lot of courageous steps in there to challenge yourself and I guess not experience shame and understanding so many other people who are going through similar things. And I think when you do get to the point you can share the light bulb that goes off sometimes in other people where you can see that they understand and it's like a release.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah, and shame grows in silence.

Kerry StainesAnd I guess that kind of draws me to, you know, some of the other questions about what drew you to the sector. I think you've kind of explained part of that, happy for you to add more, but then if you can think of any of, you know, or an example of what's been your proudest moment so far?

Cecilia McKenzieI sort of have worked in the sector in different ways, you know, as I touched on before, I was an Aboriginal health worker. For a lot of years, I've got a background in community work and counselling. And then I stopped and ran my own business, singing, teaching singing and singing for weddings and funerals. I did that for a bit, trying to, you know, my experience of domestic violence was a very long one. Yeah, I was very young when I entered into my abusive relationship and I was in it for a very, very long time. And I guess I was really passionate about coercive control education because for me, with a young, you know, kind of naive brain, you know, I've been accepted into the Sydney Conservatorium of Music to study a Diploma of Opera. I kind of saw this fool's gold that drew me in. And I'd had a really complex childhood of, you know, domestic violence and trauma. And so this fool's gold was completely beguiling. You know, it was the missing piece, I thought. So I abandoned all of my sort of youthful dreams to kind of follow this love that I felt was meeting my needs. And it really catapulted me on a lovely journey. I've got my beautiful children, but I really lost myself. That experience was about just meeting that relationship, meeting the needs. And so my recovery journey is actually, like, I worked, did all of those things. But as I got older, recognised I'd lost myself. And I actually hadn't lost myself. I'd never actually found myself. Navigated that. Navigated homelessness. Navigated, you know, systems, trauma, all of that kind of stuff. And, you know, was doing my thing. And I was actually working at Canteen as the National Cultural Consultant for a while. And that was a beautiful job. Loved it. You know, amazing organisation. And talk about bravery. Talk about tenacity. That's what I encountered working in that organisation with those formidable young people. But then the position with domestic violence in New South Wales came up. And I'd been doing, you know, my individual personal advocacy, around domestic violence, coercive control. I had to do it. I had to do this job and be a part of this conversation. And, you know, to talk about my proudest moments. And this one's going to get me. You know, I'm a mother of a lot of girls. And I want to be in a conversation. And I want to be a part of change. You know, because for me, it was the silence. You know, and this is 10, 15 years ago, my experience. There was still so much shame, so much judgment, so much disconnect when it came about talking about domestic violence. And I really didn't want for my girls to live in an environment where that was normalized, because so much of my dreams and joy had been robbed from that experience. So, don't see a need without doing something. So I got into the conversation. And yeah, no, my proudest moment, I'd have to say, my daughter and I were chosen in the delegation for Wiyi Yani U Thangani Institute at the Women Deliver Conference. So, with First Nations women from across Australia, with advocates from across the globe. And I didn't go on about it too much. But, you know, standing there in that environment, having gotten out of our experience, yeah, having, you know, navigated and just walking that space with my daughter and talking about the truth and talking about bravery and changes, it was, yeah, remarkable.

Kerry StainesWell, I think you can be very proud of what you've accomplished and you are certainly a shining light in this space. You bring hope to so many people with what you've been able to achieve and your courageousness and stubbornness to keep going is something that we can all look towards and admire.

Kerry StainesI just have one final question for you. You know, how do you stay strong in your culture and how do you keep it present in your everyday life?

Cecilia McKenzieCulture is Country for me. And living here on beautiful Yuin Country, half an hour away from like the next town, reminds me of grounding myself. Like I drive to the big smoke about once a week. And you know, it's great to be in those conversations. It's important to be in those conversations and support change. But being able to get in the car and drive down that dirt road and sit under the grandfather tree at the back of my place. And listen to, you know, a really important cultural mentor for me was a beautiful man called Uncle Eric Bell. He's a Ngunnawal man. He's gone Dreamtime. And my father was really disconnected from culture. He was removed and spent a lot of his childhood in boys homes. And Uncle Eric just, I'd worked closely with him and he really took me and my children under his wing. And during periods of of being on my own, he'd come and bring us wood and we'd go and sit by the river together. And he said to me, you know, Cecilia, your purpose in this life is to find your gifts and your responsibility is to give them away. Yeah. Oh, he was a very, like, he sticks with me and, and his spirit comes to me often when I'm on the farm. And like, I really recognize that in my business, I've identified myself as a connector and advocate and an educator. Because to me, one of the really important pieces and elements of this work that we do is the connections, is the integration. Like I see all of these wonderful programs, wonderful people who haven't connected, who haven't sort of like the pieces aren't integrated. They're not, the strings aren't tied. So I like to be in a landscape where I'm like, oh, that's interesting what you're doing. Let's connect you over here. Let's connect there. And that's what I really enjoy about working at Domestic Violence New South Wales. We've got the formidable Aboriginal Women's Steering Committee. We've got amazing, you know, hard working members that support victim survivors every day and connecting them, amplifying their voices. Like I like a yarn and, you know, I love that. I like to create the opportunity to amplify their voices, their perspectives and what they're doing and how it's hitting the ground and how it's actually, like, meaningfully helping people. Because people can think things are a great idea, but, you know, you go out to the regions, you look at the complexities in communities that are all very nuanced in every different community. And it might work for one place and it might work conceptually, but it just won't work in that community for an array of reasons. And I like to unpack those conversations and, you know, create solutions that work rather than look like they work.

Kerry StainesYes, and genuineness to it.

Cecilia McKenzieYeah. Yeah, yeah. So, staying connected with... I'm the Aboriginal, like, the expert reference group in Canberra. I'm on that group with amazing, dynamic Aboriginal women who, like, I'm accountable to them. I'm accountable to my community. And that reminds me of what's important. I'm also reminded of my own experience, often, but not in a traumatising way all of the time. Sometimes I get triggered. You know, sometimes I get triggered, but other times, it's like, I remember being in that situation. Like, in real time, it hits your heart and you're like, we're just people and trying to make this work.

Kerry StainesIt's been an absolute pleasure and thank you so much for sharing some really sensitive information and really appreciate you taking the time and we will invite you back to unpack coercive control.

Cecilia McKenzieThanks so much, everyone.

Outro Music / VoiceoverIf you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.