From Community Need to Community-Led ChangeA Conversation with Julie Perkins

Intro Music / VoiceoverWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations Advocates Against Family Violence CEO, Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

Kerry StainesToday we have with us Julie Perkins, who's the CEO of Gurehlgam, also known as Many Rivers from my point of view in the FVPLS sector. Thank you, Julie, for joining us. And Julie is from northern New South Wales. And Julie, if you just tell me a little bit where's your mob, your country?

Julie PerkinsYeah, hi Kerry. Great to be here. I'm a Gumbaynggirr woman, and Gumbaynggirr country where I was raised is the mid north coast of New South Wales. It's between Coffs Harbour and Grafton in New South Wales. A little place called Corindi, Red Rock is where I was raised. Lovely part of the world.

Kerry StainesI was just about to say that, beautiful part of the world. Yeah, well thank you so much for having the time to talk to us. Really excited to have you on today as one of the, well, the pilot program for the Family Violence Prevention and Legal Services. So let's just start right back at the beginning. So your service, as I said, was the pilot program, and the model evolved in the late 90s. Can you tell me how that came about, and what were the early days of the pilot, and how did it look at that stage?

Julie PerkinsYeah, thanks Kerry. It was very unique. I mean, it started back in the ATSIC day. It started from the ATSIC Council, which was also called Many Rivers at the time. And it started because the Council at the time, you know, recognised and respected that there was just sadly too much, you know, violence occurring. And they also wanted to, obviously look at doing something, you know, specifically around women and children. It took a lot of hard work in the early days to, you know, speak to the various levels of people. The council, thankfully, the Regional Council it was, took real responsibility, and there was some, some of us in core organisations that they brought on board to, you know, engage with community, and to ensure that, I suppose, what community were seeking is what the council were putting forward. So it was a bit of a battle in those early days. The concept—

Kerry StainesAnd what a great example of self-determination and community-driven, you know, we often talk about the FVPLS services have evolved as a need from community, and that's obviously very clearly how the service that you're working with now has evolved. So I guess moving from that, but still talking about the pilot, how did you get the community involved, and then how was it received by the community? I guess so in those early days of getting it moving, getting that buy-in, yeah.

Julie PerkinsYeah, look, we had, you know, the idea obviously came from the council in terms of from community because as we know at the time the way ATSIC was structured was, you know, the elected representatives from community. And then through their work, they would be liaising and out with communities up and down our area of Many Rivers at the time, to gauge what were the priorities for community. So once this was identified like you said from, from the community themselves, it then had to be, you know, it went through the motions with ATSIC to, you know, more of the, the ATSIC operational type arm. But the councillors and some select people at the time that, that we brought on, and we were one of them, to come on board and do further, you know, I don't always like the word consultation, but just yarning up with all the communities in our region where this service would cover. We went out, I suppose we were just like little foot soldiers, you know. We went out, we sat down, we went to a whole range of, you know, the various different communities. We went to specifically our Elder groups, we went to, you know, the, various women's groups, women specifically on their own. We just went and got as much general, you know, advice and guidance, and we wanted to make sure that this was coming from the community. And it was, it was hard going because it was a new concept at the time. It was, it was hard to, it was hard within the operational arm at the time of ATSIC to sort of get this model endorsed and approved. We had some real, a couple of real champions in the old days in ATSIC. One woman in particular, I can recall her from Canberra, and she was a real, she was like a real champion of ours and she was like an executive in ATSIC. So we were able to, to get her to come and meet and really work with us and push the cause, you know, and be our champion. So that was a real battle. Look, it wasn't easy Kerry, because to be honest, you know, way back then, there were also some parts, you know, in community who, who did at the time, you know, question why we needed this sort of service. Things sadly back then mightn't have been as open as what they are now. So we did have some, I can recall some big community meetings that we went to. I can recall people being concerned that we were out to maybe split families up, you know, in terms of our work that we were hoping to progress to end violence and improve conditions for families generally, but you know, as we know, the statistics—

Kerry StainesIn terms of self-determination and when you are, you know, helping community to realise the solutions, you never have 100% of the people on board, and so determining where to push through and where to pull back. But it sounds like the resistance wasn't about reducing family violence, but it was around what doors would this open up that may negatively impact, so, so like breaking up—

Julie PerkinsYou're correct, yeah, yeah. And it was, you know, like I said it was different time space back then, you know, 25 plus years ago. And it was just this new concept where people were, you know, wondering, you know, how far we were going to sort of, you know, work with families, what were some of the outcomes, could we work? And to be honest with you, this is where this original vision came from, and sometimes I know from now we may operate a little bit differently at times to some of our other services that have evolved. One of the areas that the community said to us way back then was, okay, we can see what you're trying to do, we can see the positives of this, but what we do want you to do is we want you to work holistically. We want you to work holistically with families. You know, and that, that concept even then, bringing that concept to the table and to the table of ATSIC at the time, I would have to be honest and say wasn't that popular at the time with the, with the, with the funding bodies. Again, that was, it started off being solely we were going to focus around our women and children, and then our communities came back to us and said, look, that works wonderful, but we want this arm as well. We want you to be a little bit more holistic. And that's where this holistic working that we still do to this day came about, where we work with entire families. And we also have a, continuing on to this day, a men's program as well. And we do work with all persons who sadly use violence as well. And we know that that's not the same, you know, as all of our other services, but that's what our community asked for.

Kerry StainesAnd that's, you know, what makes self-determination unique for each community. Before we just dive into the programs that you deliver in, in more detail, you've mentioned ATSIC through the conversation, I'm just aware there's probably some people who are listening, you know, ATSIC now is 20 plus years old. Can you just give a brief about how the environment functioned during the ATSIC days so that people can understand what that looked like, yeah?

Julie PerkinsAbsolutely. And ATSIC, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Commission, you know, I guess it's, it's whichever perspective you take, but you know, certainly in our region, I can't, and I don't generally speak for other people's regions, in our region I can, I can speak quite confidently in that it was probably one of our most productive times. And it was productive because the voices came from the people. The people were elected to the council, and then, you know, went up to the stages, up to the next level, up to the commissioner level, and to the national level. And, you know, I can say from our region that we actually achieved a lot. I was never directly, I didn't obviously work directly for ATSIC or I wasn't an ATSIC elected official at any time.

Kerry StainesYou would have been way too young.

Julie PerkinsYeah. No, I was never, I was never in, you know, in the employ or as a commissioner. So I speak from merely a community viewpoint. But we achieved a lot as, in our region. And to be honest, when I, when I think now of the work that, you know, I'm in more broadly, I think to be honest that, that they were good days. We had elected officials, they were from the community, the priorities came to the community, and we saw a sense of real empowerment and achievement here.

Kerry StainesSo that, that elected body had some level of authority over that community and how funds were spent or what the priorities and focus were? And is it correct in saying that you would have representatives from all the individual communities would then join together, say for New South Wales, to talk about things that are happening, and then up to the national—

Julie PerkinsYes. And it was a real, yes, and in our region that worked well. And I dare say we had some amazing elected, you know, officials and reps, and sadly most of those persons have now passed on. We've, we only have, you know, there were different, different people involved obviously over the years, but a lot of our Elder persons who set the groundwork for much of the, you know, organisations that we have today, some of the good work that's still continuing, a lot of those persons have passed on. But it was that real sense of togetherness and coming together, looking at the priorities, and people generally sat around the tables in good faith and good spirit, you know, negotiating because we, as it still is today, you know, different communities have different needs and you're not going to have everything that you need or want specifically right at that moment. But they were very good, they were very good over the years of saying, well community X, you know, we've done this specific thing, we've come to an agreement, that's a priority. Next one's community Z, community M. So they were really good at working together, and we had some really great people involved.

Kerry StainesRight, thank you. I just thought it's probably worth talking about what ATSIC looked like and just in case some of the listeners weren't sure. So we'll just, we can jump back to your holistic model. And I guess there's a number of programs that you guys at Many Rivers deliver. So can you just talk me through some of those that demonstrate your holistic model?

Julie PerkinsYes, the holistic model. So I've mentioned that we do have men's programs, and we have programs that do work with persons who use violence. And you know, what I want to just make sure that people understand, and this took us a while as well, people would say to us, oh you're going to mediate violence. No, we're not going to do that. We have a zero approach and a zero tolerance of violence. What this is, is working, it's separate. It's not bringing people together as such. It's actually working, and this is requested by the communities, the programs are run independently in terms of our work with persons who use violence, our men's programs. But we also run homeless programs because we all know that we need safe homes as a basis, as a basis. And even when our, you know, I use women and children, even when our women and children are fleeing violence, where do they go? Where do they go? And we—

Kerry StainesAbsolutely.

Julie PerkinsAbsolutely, and that is the base to keep our people safe is safe, affordable housing. So we do have a, we do run a, a homeless program as well. We also run a seniors program, and we run that seniors program so that they can be our, our cultural mentors. Basically everything we do, we sit around in a yarning circle with our senior people and Elders, who come together generally once a week to once a fortnight. And we talk about issues, and they bring things to our attention, you know. They still bring things to our attention.

Kerry StainesAbout what they're hearing, and yeah.

Julie PerkinsAbsolutely, what they're hearing in community, what they're seeing in community. So we can bring that into our programs as well.

Kerry StainesYou were talking about the men's program that's run independently and not that, what do you, what do you mean by that? What does, what do you mean run independently?

Julie PerkinsWell they're all under Gurehlgam, but you know, we don't go bringing, which people assume that we will be bringing persons who use violence and our victim-survivors together as such. Now, the, yes, so the only time, you know, that there will be, and again, this is from community, we do know that there are obviously, you know, in terms of relationships that persons are part of, but there could still be children involved in that relationship. So what we, what, yeah, so what we work with is to ensure sadly these persons may have parted ways, you know, due to a number of factors. But what we want if there are children involved and there's no, nothing against the law, obviously we will have to respect the law, we want to ensure that the, the children of that relationship have, you know, a respectful relationship with their, with their parent if that's safe to do so. Safety is obviously for all of us the number one priority. What our program does is work with those persons to, you know, take their responsibility for their own actions so that they themselves may, hopefully, our goal is that they change their ways. Because what we don't want, what we don't want is people just moving on to the next person, you know, and the cycle continues.

Kerry StainesAnd the importance of those relationships with children are just vital to any young person's well-being as well. So when, if you kind of cast your mind back, where would you say you've seen the most impact of your service delivery model in the community? Because you do have a unique service delivery model. Where have you seen the, the highest impact?

Julie PerkinsLook, I think there's two areas. I think, we do a lot of work with young people as well. We do a lot of work in our Kempsey office with youth, and we've had a really good impact with particularly young teenagers and young, young people. So with a lot of work with schools, a lot of work with out of, after school programs that we run as well. We've, we recently was successful in, in another youth program that is run from our centre down there. So we've had a lot of impact with our young people. And I think the other area, and I think look this is just general, is that we've got a great working relationship like I mentioned with our seniors and our Elders, of mentoring our young people. And for instance here in the Clarence Valley area, we regularly have young people meet with our seniors and Elders here as well. So that influence, and this discussion about how violence is just not good for our communities, and it's not our way. And that's I think what our seniors and our Elders have been very successful in their way of just yarning up and talking about this is not our way. This is not our way.

Kerry StainesSo do you think you get, because you get good engagement from young people in that region, do you think that's because they see themselves, because of the way your community comes together constantly and your, leadership I guess through the services showing the importance of the relationship with Elders and bringing those together, do you think it's that connectivity with culture and, and your specific community that keeps the young people coming back?

Julie PerkinsYeah, I think so. I think it's exactly that. I think it's the connectivity to our seniors. We stay culturally connected, you know, and that's the real strength. All the programs we run, we really have a strong cultural focus and cultural connectivity. We've got, we also do language programs as well with some language teachers.

Kerry StainesOkay, I didn't know that. That's a new one.

Julie PerkinsYeah, yeah, yeah, I forgot to mention that. So, and that's a real, we've seen a real uptake with our young people, you know, like a real revitalisation of wanting to learn language and know culture, you know. So I think that's been, that's been a real success, yeah.

Kerry StainesAnd I think people often forget, when we talk about culture and connectivity, it comes with responsibility and accountability. So it's not a, you know, it's a very much a two-way street, and I think, my personal opinion is when young people see that they have accountability and responsibility within their community to engage and behave in certain ways, that that builds self-confidence.

Julie PerkinsI would agree, I would agree Kerry. Because they come in, when the Elders have their events, they come in and even we've got a great relationship with the schools, and the school network and some of the Elders and local mob who work in the school system. They bring them along to our events to, you know, make the lunches for the Elders, be there to serve them, sit down and talk about their life as a child, the Elders. So they come in and, and they often, you know, make some little cooking, you know, little something for the Elders and things like that. So I think you are, I think you're right because it, you're absolutely correct, it's about that the accountability as well of the, the young people. And I think that actually then sort of grows that respect for where, how our Elder's life has been, you know? How our Elder's life has been because we know they have come through the hard yards and it's been really tough for them. And they're our leaders and that's who we follow, and they're our guider. So yeah, it's a great relationship.

Kerry StainesMm, no, I think it's a, it's a great example. I mean I could yarn with you all day, I do have a couple, just a couple more questions for you. So personally, what drew you to working in this space, and I guess when you reflect on, you know you've been working in space for a long time, do you have some really, you know, a proud moment that you would like to share?

Julie PerkinsYou know, for me personally, I've always been, you know, pretty much a sort of a social justice advocate, even in my young day. I've been pretty much, I guess some people might call me a bit of an activist, or at times a bit of an agitator depending on the day. But—

Kerry StainesOh, and people don't probably realise that you're also a lawyer.

Julie PerkinsYeah, and I think you know, that's right. And I think that Kerry, that's where it sort of came from. It's like I always had this sense, you know, growing up as a lot of our mob have experienced growing up. I grew up in a really small bush place, didn't, I didn't see electricity till I've gone to high school. Learnt to read by the old, you know, lanterns of Mars. We were people of poverty. I mean, you know, but, but I tell people, even though materially we had nothing, I had the best childhood. I had a brilliant childhood. You know, there was love, there was culture, there was all these beautiful activities, particularly with my mother. My father used to be away a lot working. I lost them all too soon. You know, there was 10 of us in our family. And basically we had to sort of make our way in life. And I, I from an early age saw just, just was so, saw the injustices of my family, mob, and thought, what can I do, what can we do? And it sort of grew from that, that social justice and responsibility and wanting to see a fairer and equity society that I then went into more of the, as we know, as we look, as you start to learn, more of the gendered issues that are in the, in the country. And that's what sort of then took me more towards, I suppose, you know, the women and children's issues. Then that sadly, you know, drew you to the, you know, some of the, just the lack of equity and the issues surrounding women and the horrendous figures around family, domestic violence, sexual assault. And that's the path that as a mature student, I've only done year 10 at school, but it took me back as a mature person to go, if I could just know the law, L-A-W, I might be able to make a little bit of a difference. I mean I was a bit blindsided. But that's what took me in the path of going back to study, going back to study. That was a really, I suppose that was a really proud moment. I did that in honour of my mother who I lost quite early and who always imposed upon us that, you know, you are just as equal as other people. You need to stand your ground. We as mob need to stand our ground, you know? And, so I did that in honour of her.

Kerry StainesAnd look, we see you advocate regularly for mob, and you have a lot of integrity and you are very true to your roots and your community, and it's really commendable to watch the way that you work. And Julie, just so people know, is also the chair of my board. So I have the very good fortune of working with her on a regular basis. So I just have one final question for you, Julie. And that is, how do you remain connected to country? So in all the busyness of all of this, what do you do for you to remain connected?

Julie PerkinsGee. Look, you know, yes, I am very busy. I love it. You know, I'm still living here. I live on Bundjalung land, which is only about 45, 50 K's from my home land of Gumbaynggirr country. And my family generally reside still out that way on Gumbaynggirr country. I've got a couple of sisters who live in Queensland. My brother, who is the senior of our family group who's still remaining, we've lost a couple of family members now, my brother is, is a senior knowledge holder who still lives down Gumbaynggirr way. And my, my being, my being has always been, and I can pretty much say always will be, just to remain humble, be thankful and grateful to our Elders and seniors who have done the hard yards for us, and my own mother who brought us on, me on this journey. I'm always back down at home, my home land area, Corindi or Woolgoolga where I was raised. And I think I just stay true to myself and my community. And, you know, it doesn't matter who we are, how many qualifications we gain, our culture is what makes us important. Our, I walk along the beach. I love the beach. I go back out to my country, and I just walk along the beach. I go and I, to be honest, I go up to where my mum's resting, and I sit with her. And, you know, and my family. My older brothers and sisters, there is no way in this world that they would ever let, ever let anyone of our family not stay connected to culture and, and in our area. Yeah, but look, it's a privilege, you know, Kerry. It's a real privilege to be a part of FVPLS and the other services. It's a real privilege. It's, it's, it's amazing. It's an amazing journey we're on. Yeah, really positive. And, you know, thanks to the whole team and yourself.

Kerry StainesNo, thank you. And look, I'm really glad that we've been able to also, you know, capture this audio with the journey of the first pilot and how it came about. I think it's really important, as yourself as a knowledge holder of how it started, to make sure that that doesn't get lost in our larger story of, of where we're going. So thank you so much for your time today. I really appreciate it. And we will look forward to our next chat.

Julie PerkinsLovely to talk to you too. Thank you.

Kerry StainesThank you.

Outro Music / VoiceoverIf you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.