The Power of Reciprocity

Intro Music / VoiceoverWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations Advocates Against Family Violence CEO, Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

Kerry StainesWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. I respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I'm coming to you from today, the Gurung Gurung people, and pay my respects to elders past and present. For they hold the memories, traditions, and culture and hopes of Aboriginal Torress Strait Islander people. I recognize their continuing connection to our land, water, and community. Welcome back, everyone. Um, I'm excited to say that today we have Professor Kylie Cripps from Monash University. Uh, Kylie is a Chief Investigator part of the ARC Center of Excellence for Elimination of Violence Against Women, also known as CEVAW. Welcome, Kylie, to the podcast.

Prof. Kylie CrippsThanks, um, Kerry. I'm really proud to be a part of this today.

Kerry StainesYeah, it's great to have you on. Uh, one of the reasons that we really wanted you to be a guest on this podcast uh is we've, you know, we hear feedback that, you know, what does research really do for our community and, you know, does it actually help us or doesn't it help us? Um, and is it really disconnected to what's happening on the ground? So we thought it would be a great opportunity um to have you come on and talk to the listeners about, you know, maybe how research can help them in communities and really, you know, the power of research and what it can do. So I think this will be a great conversation. So let's just start off with: what's your mob or country, Kylie?

Prof. Kylie CrippsI'm a Palawa woman, um, originally from Tasmania, grew up in Tasmania. My dad's family are from the Channel District, um, south of Hobart, and my, um, mom's mom, um, are from far northwest Tasmania. And I grew up, um, most of my life, um, on the far northwest coast of Tasmania before moving to, to Melbourne. (laughs) Um, being here.

Kerry StainesAmazing. Great. And again, great to have you on the show. So, Kylie, can you talk us through, you know, there's probably two areas. One is how research links to government policy, or policy in general, that affects our mob. And then also how that, how research can also have a direct connection to community. So maybe if we take the first part and looking at um how research can influence policy that ultimately affects how many of our systems work with us within our communities.

Prof. Kylie CrippsYeah. That, that's a really, um, good question. And, and I think research is, is really important for ensuring that policy and, um, law reforms, um, and laws generally, are not done on the run. You know, um, are not done on a whim, um, but are informed by evidence. They're informed by what we know is actually happening, uh, on the ground. Um, so research is needed to know what the statistics are, um, but statistics always, don't always give us an understanding of people's experiences of violence. And so we need, um, you know, research that, um, involves community. Um, so researchers sitting with community to understand problems better and to be able to communicate that, uh, with policy makers so that we get evidence-informed policy that can be responsive to community. Um, and so, so research to policy is about getting policy that is going to be appropriately responsive to community. But to be able to do that, we have to do research with community to get the, the story accurate, right? Um, and to understand the problems that community are facing in the moment and how those problems have changed, how the problems, um, can be addressed, so that that can be communicated up to policy as well. Does that answer the question?

Kerry StainesYeah, it does. Um, it leads me to thinking about, you know, all our communities are so different in how we operate, um, and, you know, what some of our challenges might be or what some of our solutions might be. So how does, how would the research, I'm just trying to draw the line between all those differences and then um the research, how do we know which research to use that then can influence the policy?

Prof. Kylie CrippsAnother great question. Uh, and I think, you know, the importance that we're often pushing with government is that they need to do local-based solutions because there is such diversity, uh, in the way in which people experience, um, community life, whether it be, uh, in Darwin, whether it be in, you know, some of our rural communities, whether it be, um, in some of our southern states or our island communities. So it, it really is about making sure that we are doing, um, policy that is responsive, but also generalist enough that we can then do place-based initiatives, right? Um, not that, that can then be tailor-made, right? Not ones that where it's a one-size-fits-all model. Because it, in many instances, the one-size-fits-all models, uh, fail our community.

Kerry StainesSo really leaning into there is some themes, although we've got different communities, one of the themes um that we've heard, like I've, I've not heard anyone talk against is um not solution-based, you know, not self-determined. So if we can get policies that reflect those themes, then the next layer, when it comes to implementation, will be pushing in on working with those individual communities. Is that right?

Prof. Kylie CrippsYeah, absolutely.

Kerry StainesI think that's, you know, that's really key to how it, how it can work and how we're trying to, you know, get large systems to move because there has to be some similarities. So I think, you know, um, the research is really important for those who are affected by violence on a day-to-day basis in the community. What are some of the advantages of where research can affect, I guess, really demonstrate some of the positive things that are happening on a day-to-day basis in community?

Prof. Kylie CrippsI, I think, you know, research is great for storytelling, and it's that opportunity to leverage the, the stories that are occurring in our communities about how we're making a difference. Um, how our, um, services make a difference in individual people's lives, in families' lives, in community lives, in ways that talk back to the deficit, um, or negative, um, perceptions that are so often put out, often by media. And so it's that opportunity for us to celebrate the way in which we are supporting our own self-determination and empowering ourselves to, to be safe in our communities.

Kerry StainesSo with CEVAW, that's an, that's, works internationally with other indigenous groups. Why do we do that with, and what can we learn from international research?

Prof. Kylie CrippsInternational research is really useful in terms of seeing how other communities, um, other countries, are responding to similar problems. It's an opportunity for us to learn from each other, to hear each other's stories, um, and experiences of lobbying government, of trying different solutions in each other's communities. It's also about having a sisterhood, (laughs) um, a community-hood, if you like, of indigenous people who are holding the same problems, or similar problems, and the similar struggles in trying to get the support needed to address them. And it, it's strength-building. It's capacity-building around how we collectively join forces, if you will, (laughs) um, to, to leverage the, the need and the resources across our nations to, to make it the difference that we need in our communities. It's not that, that we're the same same, but it is that opportunity to be able to, to hear that we're not isolated in our community or in our country, but that there are others that are also experiencing the same set of, um, circumstances or problems and hearing how they're responding to that and to be energized or motivated, um, by, uh, the opportunities that they've, uh, utilized to overcome those issues. So it, it can be a really powerful, uh, way in which to, to get involved internationally, uh, in terms of what's happening um in that international space. Certainly, in my experiences doing some of my work internationally, it's just, I've always been, um, inspired by what I, I see and hear um in other communities. Um, I can remember as a young person, as a PhD student going to America, thinking, you know, "They've had 500 years of colonization at that point, surely they've got the answers to family violence." I was naive. (laughs) Um, but, you know, it was great to have the conversations around, well, how, how do they struggle with, um, maintaining their self-determination on these issues? How do they work with, um, the issues around sovereignty across their nations? How do they work with government funding um when there's, and political cycles, um, and how do they get support and maintain momentum when other organizations, non-indigenous organizations, often aren't supporting or having the same commitment to supporting their clients in the same way? So it is, yeah, so they're, they're really interesting conversations and opportunities for us to learn from each other.

Kerry StainesYeah, lots of similarities there. Yeah. So talking about, you know, community and research happening in our communities, if I was in community and someone approaches me to say, "Look, um," or one of our elders to say, "We wanting to do some research on your community around family violence," how do we know those people are, I guess, legitimate? Um, how do we trust that they're going to do the right things with that research? What are some tips of what we should be looking for?

Prof. Kylie CrippsAgain, this would be another really good question and it's one that I, I think is important for us all to think about. It is to, to be thinking about who are they? Who's their mob? Are they, are they mob? It's thinking about the community benefit. You know, is this research that's going to have a benefit? A benefit for, for our mob, or is this research that's just going to have a benefit for the person coming in to, to extract our knowledge? So really thinking about that benefit, uh, and who it goes to. It's thinking about the value of the research. Is it answering questions, research questions, that the community wants answers to? It's thinking about the commitment the researcher has, or not, to relationship-building. And to do research with community requires relationships. Um, it's a negotiation around what's the research questions you're going to to answer, or ask? What's the, the message you're going to employ to get those questions answered? It's about what kind of outputs are you going to have from that? Is it a research thesis? Is it, um, academic papers? Or are you going to do some community papers and community reports? If they're coming with already set answers to all of that and not seeing it as a negotiation, that would be a red flag for me. Um, because, because it should be a community negotiation. The other is about reciprocity. What's the reciprocity in, in terms of, you're coming to take our knowledge but what are you giving back to us? And then when you're doing the research, when you actually have negotiated doing research with community, and you turn up to do research on a particular day, as we all have, and there's stuff going on in community and, and it's not actually a, a good day to do interviews or focus groups, what's your behavior and response of that researcher on that day? It should be, "What can I do to help? Can I make the tea? (laughs) Can I, can I help with the damper? Can I..." You know, if you're doing a funding submission, "Can I help write the submission with you? Can I, can I look after the kids?" You know, while you need space, should I come back another day? All those things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It, it's thinking about the practical ways in which they're going to be responsive to your everyday experiences. Because if, if they're looking at your relationship as a transaction, um, of, "I'm here to do the, the, the interviews. Oh, this is going to be an inconvenience," then again, they're not necessarily people you want to work with.

Kerry StainesThey're not there for the right reasons and they're not there to help community overall. They're there to get whatever information they want. That's right. It's not a relationship and it's not a two-way. Yeah. Hear a lot about, yeah. So we also hear a lot about, you know, data and data ownership, and, you know, there's lots of talk around data sovereignty and who owns the data when someone's coming into do research. And you talked about community reports. So I guess two questions here I've got really is around, you know, who, who does own that data or how can that be negotiated? And then can community have some parameters on, well, we don't want to participate in the research unless there is a community report that's going to help our community? So there's probably two questions in that one, Kylie.

Prof. Kylie CrippsAbsolutely. And again, this comes back to ethics, um, it comes back to the ethics application that people are doing. If they're doing an ethics application through their universities or through their jurisdiction, or through AIATSIS, for our example, for our national ethics, the best practice is that you do an MOU with community or with the organizations, that really articulates um in that whose data this is, right? Um, how that data is going to be owned, how it's going to be respected, how it's going to be utilized, and what are the outputs going to be, you know? Um, "Yes, you know, part of this, the work is going to include community reports. Yes, um, I would like to," you know, as a community, "I'd like to have or be involved in, um, presenting this work back to community. I want to have the option to, um, revisit this work in three years' time. Will you come and do this with us again?" Having all of that articulated on paper in an MOU, um, that's a living document that you can, you can, both parties can change in negotiation, so that the people are empowered to know and to understand what um to expect from that relationship, right? And it's something that you can hold people to account for. Does that make sense?

Kerry StainesYeah. If you could just probably explain for people who don't know what AIATSIS is and what their role is with universities more broadly, yeah.

Prof. Kylie CrippsSo AIATSIS is the Australian Institute for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, um, People, um, in, and it sits in, um, Canberra. Its focus is exclusively on, uh, looking after our diverse history, cultures, and heritage. It does publish a whole range of books and manuscripts and the like related to our work as indigenous peoples. But it also has specific, um, collections of our work and our history and family history resources, as well. So it's a really useful organization, um, national institution, uh, that, that is, is great, uh, to access. Uh, they also have, um, an ethics committee, and that ethics committee is what I'm referring to in terms of us utilizing that ethics committee, uh, to, to support, uh, the work that we're doing, um, in, in research.

Kerry StainesSo testing research is their role to make sure that researchers are approaching things in the correct way, and that's culturally appropriate and respectful to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. Yeah, okay, great. Thank you, it's just good to clarify. What drew you to research and to research what you do, and then I'd just love to hear about some of your proudest moments so far?

Prof. Kylie CrippsMy very first research project came from my lived experience. So my, my first research project was looking at sexual assault support services for indigenous women, um, and how supportive they would be, or weren't, as the case may be. And, you know, that was an empowering way to, to actually look at how do we, how do we look at whether they're culturally safe? What does culturally safe mean? Do they employ indigenous people? Do they engage with our communities? And all of those kind of really important questions. Because as a young person, you know, doing their honors degree at the time, it was a question that had come up for me on several occasions where I felt like they didn't, you know, the services I'd engaged with, hadn't understood culture. They hadn't understand connection to country. They hadn't understand how that was integral to, to my safety, um, and safety being broad, both physical safety, emotional safety, physical, you know, well-being, um, both mine and my family's. And so it is that important sort of, you know, how research does actually drive the work that you want to do. But it was also that point of wanting to change services, right? So that, for future generations, I wanted that, you know...

Kerry StainesYeah, so people not having the same experience.

Prof. Kylie CrippsYeah, exactly, that they would get services that were more responsive. Um, and so here we are, (laughs) you know, 25 years later...

Kerry StainesI was going to say 5 years later? (laughs)

Prof. Kylie CrippsYeah, yeah, yeah. Let, let's go that way. (laughs) Um, and I got to say, you know, uh, there's been a few proud moments. One of the most profound, proudest moments I've got to say is working with community to do a research project on community partnerships. What are community partnerships in domestic and family violence? And, you know, are these partnerships one way where people just want indigenous people to, to be on the partnership to get the grant, (laughs) and then they don't turn up again, or can they be more meaningful than that? And so it was a, a project over several years. Um, and as part of that project, the steering group that included several elders said to me, "Kylie, people just don't get what violence looks and feels like for us." And, and one elder in particular, she said, "I have to explain it to them, but I never feel like I explain it well enough that they get it. I need a poster. I need something that I can just pass to them and say, 'Here you are'." (laughs) And so I said, "All right, well let's, let's work with that." So we, we got on a whiteboard, um, and I said, "So here's our, you know, one of our sister girls that's, that's experiencing this right now. What are people saying to her? Who are all the different people, um, that she's interacting with and what are they saying to her? And let's put that on a poster. So what, what are child protection saying? What are the refuges saying? What are police saying to her? What are the elders saying to her? Um, what's his family saying? What's, what are all these different services saying? And what is she feeling in the middle?" When we got to that question of what is she feeling in the middle, it was a really momentous moment because what we realized was everybody else um around those, all of those service providers, all of those community groups, all had a different perspective of what she should do. Um, and, and she just felt, as being the person in the middle, that she didn't know what to do. Who to turn to for help, that she was alone, um, and that she wasn't going to please anybody, and it was such a powerful poster. So then we went in and we, we developed it up as a poster. Um, and then we got ready to launch it and I can remember Auntie Fay, who, who's passed now, we, we were getting ready to launch it and I um put the, the poster in front of her and I said, "So what do you think?" You know, it was all polished, it had the artwork on it, it was all done. And she burst into tears. And my response was, "Oh, if it's wrong, if it's not good, we can cancel it, we can just have lunch." (laughs) Um, and, and she, she just grabbed my cheeks and she said, "It's beautiful, it's just what I need. And now I don't have to find the words. I can just put this poster on the table and they will understand." And that to me was one of the proudest moments because it, that poster continues to be the communicator. A tool that that um community can use to communicate to people about what we need to do in this space, how we all need to get onto the same space, um, onto the same page, about how we support victims of violence.

Kerry StainesYeah, that sounds amazing, Kylie. I can understand why that's a proudest moment. It is, and is that um a resource that we can share with this podcast as an attachment for people who want to take a look?

Prof. Kylie CrippsAbsolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I'll share it.

Kerry StainesYeah, great. Thank you so much. Just one final question I have for you, and you've, you've kind of answered it through a lot of your questions, which is really, um, you know, what does culture mean for you and how do you keep that present in your day-to-day life, probably when you're not in community? In community, it's, you know, it's much easier, but when you're away from community?

Prof. Kylie CrippsUm, a couple of ways. So, I mean, culture is, it's part of our being. It is with us in all the things that we do. It's those precious moments when you're, you know, connecting to your, your mom's and your aunties and your, your brother's and your uncles, (laughs) um, your dad's, on the phone, you know, because you're always getting phone calls. (laughs) But it's also those moments, those quiet times when you just want to reflect on your day. And I will often sit and write some poetry um that might reflect on the day or on being connected to, to country and to, to what ever I'm dealing with in that, those moments. But I also, and as my, (laughs) my husband is non-indigenous, and as he will say, my, my totem is the turtle, and our house is definitely colonized by turtles. So on all our walls (laughter) and around our house, are turtles.

Kerry StainesYeah, that's so funny. Mine's, my totem's the Willy Wagtail and often people can't find it. So my house is a combination of wrens and Willy Wagtails when people find things they kind of say, you know, the little wren birds?

Prof. Kylie CrippsYeah, yeah.

Kerry StainesThe little, look, I've even got one right here, I can show you, not that anyone else can see it. But yeah, so I've got kind of different types of birds because I guess it must be harder to find Willy Wagtails around than it is to find turtles. Thank you, Kylie, for sharing and really, I've learned a lot from this session and I'm sure that I will come back and ask more questions. So...

Prof. Kylie CrippsNo problem.

Kerry StainesThank you.

Outro Music / VoiceoverA huge thank you to Professor Kylie Cripps for joining us today and sharing such vital insights into the power of indigenous-led research. It's a powerful reminder that when research is done with heart and reciprocity, it truly becomes a tool for our own self-determination. If you'd like to learn more about Kylie's work or get in touch with her, you can find her at Monash University or through the ARC Center of Excellence for the Elimination of Violence Against Women, also known as CEVAW. We've also attached a digital copy of the community poster Kylie mentioned in today's episode to the show notes for you to download and share. If you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800 RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate, and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.