Before the Papers Arrive

Intro AudioWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. A gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong, and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations advocates against family violence, CEO Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

KerryWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. I respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I'm coming to you from today—the Gurung Gurung people—and pay my respects to elders past and present. For they hold the memories, traditions, and culture and hopes of Aboriginal Torress Strait Islander people. I recognize their continuing connection to our land, water, and community.

KerryAnd we have Tine McOnnan with us today from SiS in Tasmania, which is the Specialist Family Violence Prevention and Legal Services. And Tine's role there is the Principal Lawyer for the Family and Safety Program. Welcome, Tine, to the show.

TineHi, yeah, thank you for having me. Very good to be here.

KerryYeah, welcome. We're very excited to have you on there. And we've got some great conversations today really focusing on, you know, when is the best time to engage with legal practitioners, and really start to explore why and how to engage with legal practitioners in a way that's early intervention and prevention. So just exploring those, and then really looking at if you can share a case study, you know, where early intervention and prevention has worked—obviously we won't use names or anything like that—but really highlighting to the average person, who, you know, may or may not engage with lawyers on a regular basis, to give them confidence about when to engage and what that could potentially look like. So we'll just get into it, I think.

KerrySo as I was saying, it's common that the average person will seek out a lawyer or legal representation when they've either been served with papers or, you know, they've had engagement in the system in some way for whatever reason—and not taking away for how important that representation is—but could you explain to me and the listeners, when is the best time to engage with a lawyer?

TineMy personal opinion and what I've seen in my work, the best time for that to happen—and where we see the most impact, or rather, the least impact on the family unit, which is what we're after in this system a lot of the time—is before those papers are there. Before you've got a court date, before you've got a letter from another lawyer, before anyone's involved in that sort of system or in that way. And that's where we see we're able to really have that time with clients, or with families, or with communities, to really focus on what's the issue or what the information is needed and to be able to provide that advice, that information.

TineAnd that's why I do a lot of work, and something that I really enjoy, is community engagement and community legal education. Because that's really, I think, the whole element—it's a vital element to all this work we do, and that's trust. People aren't going to come and speak to you if they don't have trust, and they trust and people know you. So we do a lot of work in that area.

KerrySo when you say community engagement, if I'm living in Tasmania, and I'm not sure about whether I need legal support or not, what would what—like where do you go? Do you turn up to a neighborhood center? Do you turn up to a park? What does it look like? How will I seek you out if I don't kind of want to actually ring you? Yeah.

TineYeah, and I guess that's around our stakeholder engagement as well, so it goes wider than that. Look, we—only in the last week, we've been at Mana Legeena Day. I was there for the day, which is a celebration in Tasmania. That's a community day, and we had a stall, as such, there. It was just around conversations. And myself and other people that were there, you know, you don't just stand at the stall; you go around, you have a yarn to all different people—people you know, you meet people you don't—and then those relationships are kind of built. And that's a natural and organic way of that engagement.

TineThere's a lot of official ways we do it, like attending events like that, but for me, community engagement goes deeper than that, and that is around those relationships which we form in community. And sometimes that is through family or through work that we've done previously, and then sometimes it's all through—also through engagement with organizations, other ACCOs—so Aboriginal organizations.

KerrySo word of mouth would be important too.

TineOh, huge, huge! And those relationships. And that's how our board is made up mostly of Tasmanian Aboriginal people from all around our state, from different Aboriginal organizations and communities. And as a Principal Lawyer myself, and I've been for SiS for the most part now, five years, there's a lot of engagement there and knowing the board members and working with them, but also making—if I'm going out in community or if I am traveling, I make an effort to go and spend time in those organizations and those ACCOs so that people get to meet me, who are working at these services.

TineBecause as we know, first responses or people that are hearing stories, or when people are wanting advice, it's quite a lot of the time that first point of call is at a different organization or with someone that they trust. Sometimes that can be medical, sometimes that can be through a program, sometimes that can be just getting assistance for, you know, some other reason. So having those relationships is important. So that's something that we take a lot of pride in at SiS and at Daa'ring, is through the development of those relationships.

TineAnd that is what is critical, and that is what is vital, I think, for SiS and for Daa'ring because it's continually consulting, working, and having relationships with different communities across Tasmania. And that's how we see we're able to, you know—if we're looking at policy work, if we're looking at what we're concentrating on for the next year—what's important to community. Whether as Daa'ring and SiS, we only hold these funds, they're on trust for community, so we have to continually be looking and thinking, "Okay then," because things change over a couple of years. What's important and what do people want, and what do people need? And that all comes through that engagement.

TineSo yes, we do Mana Legeena Day. I do a lot of community legal education, and we have created a Healthy Relationships Community Legal Education Program in the last year.

KerryAnd where do you deliver that?

TineWell, I was actually delivering a lot of education in our detention—youth detention facility, actually, and speaking to the youth up in that facility. Relationships are a really big thing, and young people are having relationships, and serious relationships, while they're still youth under 18. And I was speaking to a lot of the youth up there, and that was a request, and then we started developing this program. And then I went back and showed the program, and we got some good criticism. It was a bit outdated, it turns out I'm probably a bit older than I actually thought I was, which was really useful about what is, um, I guess applicable or, um, what's important. And then have started running that program in schools around Tasmania.

TineAnd that is, I guess, that's a really good example of engagement and education, and meeting people where they are and providing information before there's, you know, people are needing legal advice. "Hey, we're here, this is what we do. We're quite approachable, I think. We're not scary as lawyers, some of us, so come and have a bit of a yarn." And that's the sort of work where I think you start to see real differences because people are feeling more comfortable to come and have, you know, a yarn to you. If someone is speaking to a family member about some concerns they're having—it could be relationship concerns, it could be around, you know, arrangements for children—even if that person hasn't met us, but one of their family members has.

KerryYeah, so knowing to engage early, yeah.

TineYeah, just go and have a yarn with Tine. She's all right, like I know her. And that's where we could see it.

KerryYeah, you've pulled up on a couple of points there, one being how individuals are going to engage, and then the other around your advocacy work and making sure that what you're representing is community-driven.

KerryI'll just move us on to the next question, which is really if you can talk me through a case study that demonstrates if you reach out and get that access to—we say access to justice which really means, you know, making sure that your rights are exercised and you've got some support to do that, because it's really difficult to navigate legal systems. So um, if you could talk me through where someone's reached out and you've been able to support them very early in the piece, how has that um helped to prevent um either some type of gender-based violence or what the community has seen? So looking at really the work that you're doing with the impact that may have on an individual, but also a community level.

TineI have one example which really comes to mind, and I think for me, when I'm doing family law or child safety work, I see if we're able to assist someone, we're not just assisting that one person or that, you know, that one parent or that child, because it can—we can see generational change, because you can see it going down. So if we're able to assist...

KerryNo one's ever on their own, just a single person, that's right.

TineNo, no! No, it's not just one outcome. And the case study that comes to my mind is a young mother which we had assisted previously on different matters, and we'd assisted on something completely unrelated, got in touch with our service, called through, asked to speak to me, and I spoke to her. She was at the hospital, and she was about to give birth. She was in a very violent relationship, had been living in a car, had felt that she couldn't leave for numerous reasons. However, at the hospital, child safety had come to see her.

TineNow, that phone call, when she was in the hospital, hadn't quite given birth, put a whole movement in motion very quickly. I was able to speak to the client around what was happening, her current situation, also what she wanted and what she needed, which was safety. She was wanting to escape this relationship, she felt like she hadn't been able to. Housing was a really big issue there, and that's something we're able to look at. I was also then able to speak to child safety before they were able to get an order, because the baby hadn't been born, around some options.

TineAnd these options were—we do have a program in Tasmania where mothers can go into a home with the baby, keep the baby when child safety's sort of on that brink, but baby stays with you and you stay with mum. And there is often quite a waitlist to be able to get into that home, and that means that you're not separated. But I was able to get onto that straight away because I was aware of that program, and because my client had known me previously, knew to call straight away and had said, "Yep, let's get onto this."

TineAnd what we were able to do is really advocate, really, really strongly right at that point to be able to get my client and her baby into that home, which meant she was able to keep that baby with her.

KerryBecause a major issue is not having accommodation to go to once you've given birth.

TineExactly right! And then during that process, we were able to advocate very heavily for her to go into that home for a period of time in which our service was able to assist her with advocating for housing. Now, the effect of that is that little baby and that mum have never been separated.

KerryYeah, it's amazing.

TineI know, isn't it unreal? And child safety had said when I first contacted them that they were planning to take that young baby. So we were able to get in motion—look, we were able to do that, very stressful for the client because she was in hospital—however, that was, you know, early intervention in this matter in some respects. And you could see the outcome, how that changed.

TineWe know that when babies and mums are separated, or with parents, it is very difficult to—well, you can't get that time back, but it's also that other hurdle of getting that young child back in your care. Yesterday, actually, I got news—I got a phone call from the client who—child safety had a bit of a supervision order just to make sure things are okay, and that order is now about to disappear with no further orders.

KerryOh, well done!

TineSo when I look at that, I think that is a good outcome, not just for my client and that baby, but I can see the generations which can come of that. And now we've also seen reunification of her with another child as well, through that work and through us assisting to advocate.

KerryYeah, that's a really good example of reaching out and, I guess, having that previous relationship with you helped you hit the ground—hit the ground running in that circumstance.

KerryYou're currently a practicing lawyer in Tasmania, and along with some of your colleagues, are responsible for the establishment of SiS in Tasmania, which is only a couple of years old now, making it the first Family Violence Prevention and Legal Services to be set up in Tasmania. Can you talk me through how that came about, and how was the need demonstrated to have this service there? Why—you know, the importance of the service, and then how you're able to pull it all together with you and your team?

TineI had worked for a sister organization in a different state—a Family Violence Prevention Legal Service. I had seen the benefit, the impact of this service model, so I was completely biased because I could see the changes that it made to families and to community, and the different style or the different care model, as I like to call it, in the legal sector, and how that can work.

TineI came back to Tasmania after some period of time, and a funding application came across our desk. We saw that there was some funding available, and at that moment, the current CEO and myself looked at it and thought, "This is fantastic." I looked at what was going on in Tasmania at the moment, and I could see that there was a big hole. I was currently working in Tasmanian Aboriginal Legal Service, which isn't the Family Violence Prevention Legal Service model, so I had a really good feeling for the matters in Tasmania that I had currently been working with.

TineIt is well known for anyone that practices in this area that your non-legal concerns, matters, issues—whatever you would like to call it—completely and dramatically affects your legal matters. And when I was working with clients in Tasmania, I could see that there were—there was a real need for assistance with those matters because they were impacting the legal matters. If that was housing, which is a huge issue—we know that housing will affect parenting arrangements, child safety or child protection, reunification...

KerryAs you just gave the example, yes.

TineExactly right! Also is a factor in family violence as well. And there was also—there is still a huge waitlist for housing in Tasmania, there's a shortage of many services across the state, and people were really struggling. And because I'd worked in that model before, I really wanted to assist with all of those things as well, because I knew how much they can impact and positively affect someone's matter. So when this funding came up, we jumped at it straight away. We had meetings very quickly, and straight away there were clients that I was already assisting that would—would be and are perfect for this model. So there was the client base, there was the need, and that was very easy to identify straight away.

TineWe did go through the grant application process, we obviously had to apply for it, but because I guess I'd worked in a sister service, I was also already working at the Tasmanian Aboriginal Legal Service, that greatly assisted with how we would look at setting this up and how it would benefit community. There was also consultation with community as well, so that was around how would this, you know, assist or is this something that community would like, and talking to those different ACCOs as well around how would this look. So there was great support, and we were really lucky in being able to—we were successful in that funding.

TineBack, and we were—you know, we're only a couple of years old, as you said, so very, very young still, but we have seen our books full, as such, but the client need is so much greater than the funding we're receiving. We are the first service, as you said, in Tasmania and fairly young, so there's still a lot of education going on within the state around what a service like this looks like and what it offers. So we're hoping at the moment—this is our sort of bottom line—and that, you know, we'll be able to grow because we definitely in Tasmania see the need that this service is needed on a bigger scale, if ever possible.

KerrySo where are your offices located, and how far do you outreach to or inreach to?

TineOur office is based in Hobart, Launceston, and Burnie, but we have also some sort of hot-desking, I would say, in Smithton. But we do travel all around the state—that is something that we do. In the last couple of months, I have been as far as Smithton, I've been up in Devonport, Launceston, down in Hobart, we travel down south of Hobart, so down to Cignet, places like that. We also service Flinders Island, and I do have—you know, I've done some work with people on Bruny Island as well. So it is very far-reaching. We've got great relationships with other organizations, that being ACCOs, but that also being other support organizations or other stakeholders. So we're very flexible, and we need to be in this line of work—that's the beauty of it—in where we meet our clients and what's comfortable for your client, because every—you know, that's different for everyone.

KerryOkay Tine, in addition to supporting Aboriginal women and children in Tasmania impacted by family violence, you also have a strong advocacy focus in your work. What does that look like for you in your current role?

TineIn my current role, I do a lot of client work. I run trials, I have clients all around the state, and I think for me, that is the beauty of our advocacy because it comes directly from how our clients are experiencing the system. It is a role which is quite different to a lot of other sort of policy advocacy roles, I think, in many other organizations, because the advocacy and the policy work that I'm looking at is because of the experiences that I am seeing and my clients are speaking to me about face-to-face.

TineSo when we're looking at advocating for change, let's say in child safety matters, that is because of experiences that have been had by my clients and by clients within our organization that have spoken or have spoken—given instructions to our lawyers around. And I think that that's a really different situation in a lot of places.

KerrySo you can really advocate in real-time, yeah, so real-time in system change.

TineExactly right!

KerryWhich is, you're right, very unique, yeah.

TineYeah, and that's—I think that's a very unique situation to be in. At the moment, we're looking around if there should be specialist family violence courts, specialist magistrates for child safety matters, a specialist Indigenous list in the Federal Circuit and Family Court of Australia in Tasmania. Those sort of things that we're looking at hasn't been an invention by myself or someone else that's sitting behind a desk that's thinking, "This is what Tasmania needs," or "This is what Aboriginal people need in Tasmania." It is because of the work that's actually happening on the ground and my clients speaking to me around these things. So I think that's quite a different process, and that's something that I'm really, really passionate about when we're looking at systematic change, that it comes from the people that are experiencing that system. That it's not people outside the system saying, "That needs to change for whoever's experiencing it." I think that that is a real difference, and that's something that I'm really proud of in our organization. But I feel in my role, the only way that I am able to advocate for policy or for change is from it coming from the ground up. That's real.

KerryYeah, and it's great that you're in a position to be able to do that, to take those experiences and because you've got those relationships with the policymakers. Doesn't mean they always agree with what you're going to advocate for, but at least they can hear first-hand, "You make a decision about this, and this is actually the real effect of what's happening."

KerryOkay, one final question for you is, looking back over your time there, and maybe it's even with the sister service, what has been one of your proudest moments in your role so far?

TineI think one of the proudest moments I've ever had, and I've kept this email, and this was from a client of mine who sent me an email after we'd had very lengthy proceedings through the Federal Circuit Court, unfortunately. And that had—those procedures—or proceedings, rather, had been so lengthy because my client had been speaking to me about concerns a child had been having in the other parent's home, and concerns that my client had had. It was very hard to prove because a lot of these issues, there isn't independent evidence for it. However, we continued, and I continued to advocate for him during that process and for the children.

TineThe reason why it's my proudest moment is that email said that the little person in these proceedings had said to my client that, "I can now sleep without being scared anymore." And for me, that changed the whole way that I felt about some of our matters, I guess, but the outcomes. And that's what it meant from a child—that child was around seven years old at that time—and to be able to hear that feedback, I thought the work that we do is about safety, and for a little person or for any client to reflect and say that, "I feel safe, I don't need to be scared anymore, that I can sleep without fearing sleep," to me, that is the absolute ultimate goal of everything we do. And that's why I've kept that email. Because it's, yeah...

KerryYeah, look, well—well done to you and the team. Like, it's amazing work that you do, very much needed. And yeah, so you don't do it for any accolades, but it is nice to get the results for the families that they so desperately are chasing, and it's great that you guys can really walk alongside community individuals. So thank you, and thank you for your time today and sharing your experiences and what's happening down in Tasmania, and we will probably try and catch up again in the next year or so to see what's going on down there. So thank you!

TineThank you, Kerry, for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.

Outro AudioIf you'd like to have a yarn with Tine and the team at SiS in Tasmania, you can find all their contact details in the show notes. Please remember that early engagement is vital, so don't hesitate to reach out if you need support. If you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate, and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.