Award-Winning Bamba Mari Men's Program

Intro/MusicWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong, and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations advocates against family violence CEO, Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

KerryWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. I respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I'm coming to you from today, the Gurang Gurang people, and pay my respects to elders past and present. For they hold the memories, traditions, and culture and hopes of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people. I recognize their continuing connection to our land, water, and community. Today we have with us Charlie Row, who's the General Manager at AFLS Queensland. And Charlie's program, Bemba Mari, was very successful recently in taking out the award for Prevention Excellence category at the QCOSS Queensland Impact Awards recently, and it's a men's program. And we're here to learn all about the men's program from Charlie, and it's so great to have you online. Welcome, Charlie.

CharlieHi, Kerry. Thank you. It's good to be here.

KerryGreat. Yes, so thanks again for your time. Before we just get into the program, maybe if you just, can you just tell the audience about your mob or your country, or where you're from?

CharlieLike Kerry said, my name's Charlie Row. I'm a proud Kamilaroi man. My grandfather's from a little mission over in Northern New South Wales called Toomelah, but I was born and raised here on Giabal and Jarowair country in Toowoomba. Um, and been here 54 years, um, living and working in this beautiful community.

KerryAh, because that's close to my country too. That's south Wakka Wakka, coming to South Wakka Wakka region. Yeah. So no, really really nice part of the world.

CharlieI have to acknowledge the Western Wakka Wakka language as well, Kerry. Now you mention that, so, yes.

KerryYeah, great. Thank you. Now, I first heard about this program at a conference um, and was really interested in uh, not only hearing about the program that's actually been going, I know you've recently restarted it, so it's actually been going for quite a period of time and you've had some really great results. Uh, so, please, can you just tell me about the program and how it came about?

CharlieI've been doing it probably for about 13 years now, Kerry, and um, it started at Carbal Medical Services back in 2011 to 2014. They got some funding to run a pilot program into community. Uh, there was only two organizations in Queensland that got that funding and Carbal was lucky enough to get it. Um, I started at Carbal in the mental health program called PAMS, Personal Help and Mental Support. Yeah, so that's an old old acronym from way back. [laughter] Um, spent 6 months in there, then this um, the role come up and I thought, "Oh, what an opportunity to have a look at it." So, I jumped in there and um, got the job there and um, developed a program for post and pre-natal um, for our men. And um, look, I spent quite a while on that and I sent it out to some partners, female partners of some blokes that I know to get their input and um, recommendations. And all I got back was smiley faces, "ha ha ha," "my man won't go to that," and all that sort of stuff. So, [laughter] um, that was a bit of a waste of time. But anyway, I sat down and um, done some research and there was a program that an organization down in Victoria or somewhere ran that allowed people to use that program as long as we didn't rebrand it and all that sort of stuff. So, didn't change it, and didn't acknowledge it. There is a book, um, designed by them with six sessions in it. And I've added another session to that, which is our first session, is uh, called "Call Me Dad" DVD: Can a Violent Man Change? So, it's all around domestic and family violence for perpetrators, the impact it has, talks about coercive control, and all that sort of stuff. So, that's the first session now. So, spoke to community members, spoke to elders, after I put it together. And they thought, "Yep, this is what we need in this um, community." So, I started doing that and I really wasn't expecting um, for it to be successful as it is, Kerry, because I was I was just Charlie Row working at Carbal doing running a men's program where we get together once a week and go through some behavioral changes and and role modeling and communication stuff. So, to be um, acknowledged and getting receiving awards for the program is just amazing.

KerryIt's good to have that recognition, and I know that, I know we'll get into the program with the details, but you know, certainly it's been a topic of conversation about men's programs in the gender-based violence space. And um, you know, we've we've certainly heard from um, a lot of men across the country how important it is to have men's programs. And there's been sort of two camps about, you know, whether, how men's programs are helping address violence. You know, certainly, coming from that gender-based lens, um, it's still about reducing violence so that women and children are not, are safe in their space. And it's great to have a program where men can put their hands up and say, "Look, I'm struggling with how I respond to things, and I know I respond to it in this way." And I think we certainly need more spaces where people can have really honest conversations about what's going for, going on for them to be able to start to change or recognize those differences.

CharlieAnd that's the correct word for, Kerry, is creating that space. You know, it's all good coming and running a program in community for our men to get their behaviors make changes and all that. But if you haven't, if you don't create a safe space where they can come and talk openly and honestly, um, then you, you won't get them in. You know what I mean? So, um, that's the first thing that I looked at was creating that safe space.

KerryThen no wonder you got the award. So, I mean, that's, that's, just in even talking about all that, is just amazing um, to be able to do something of your own back and to recognize that in the community. And then to work with community to create it. So, you've said the program, you know, started rolling out quite a while ago.

CharlieYeah.

KerryBut what do you hear from the men who attend the programs?

CharlieNo support for them, I suppose, and and what they're dealing with. You know, when we looking at um, human beings, not only men but all human beings, we've got more than one issue that they're, or we're trying to deal with. So, the wrap-around service, I think, um, that I do, I'm not sure if everybody else does, but I make sure I do that wrap-around service. So, yes, they come to the program and we and we go through that sort of stuff, but it's the one-on-one case managing stuff outside of that program. We're looking, we're, you know, we're looking at um, housing, we're looking at child safety, anything. Um, Centrelink, all that, mental health, their health and well-being. I don't judge our people. You know, people are using um, drugs and alcohol because of their trauma or grief. They haven't been given tools to cope with that trauma and grief. So, if they're using, that's okay, because I look at their mental health. If we can get their mental health on the right track and give them tools to cope with their mental health, that's either psychologist appointments or medication, then that addiction slowly disappear into the background and they get off it. So, I believe it's that wrap-around service, Kerry, it makes a massive difference.

KerryYeah, and I have heard you speak before, you know, you'll even transport people and go out and pick them up if they can't get there and make sure that people get together, which I think's really important because as you said, you know, uh, the way that everybody copes is different. And sometimes, having someone help you take those first few steps and bringing you together with other people can make all the difference to someone attending the program. Yeah.

CharlieYeah, well all the brothers try to get out of them and say they can't get there, and I say, "No, brother, I'll be there to pick you up, knocking on your door." Plus, I got a feed to feed you, so that makes it more interesting.

KerryOh look, that's all you have to do, isn't it? With some sausages is just goes a long way.

CharlieOh, chicken pasta salad and bread rolls they love.

KerryYeah, great. All right, so in terms of the program, can you, I think one of the things that helps explain the program really well is the topics that you cover um, in that program. So, you said you've got, is it six topics that you cover now?

CharlieUm, I got seven topics. I uh, I added um, the first session we usually just come in, introduce. Um, I know all the boys, but it's good to get the boys to introduce themselves, tell them bit about themselves and why they're sitting in front of us. And um, um, we go through our rules and and guidelines, you know. We're looking at being respectful to everybody. A lot of the men are. Sometimes we have female and children around, so we got to make sure we're not swearing. Make sure that we understand that everybody's an individual and human being, and we have our own opinions, and we're from different mobs. Whether we agree with those opinions or not, it's that's okay. It's somebody's opinion and we just got to respect that. Um, and then we get into the sessions, which I, which I said, "Call Me Dad: Can a Violent Man Change?" That's a DVD, goes for about an hour and 20 minutes. Um, we look at perpetrators of DV doing a program down in Victoria, and see who makes changes, what coercive control and all this stuff is, because a lot of boys don't know what coercive control is.

KerryIt's hard to explain, isn't it?

CharlieIt is, yeah. And after the video, Kerry, they actually say, "I'm actually doing that, and I didn't even know. I didn't know it was coercive control." So, it's getting them to understand that. We talk a lot about what DVO orders mean. So, no contact means no contact. That's...

KerryYeah, so domestic violence order for those who don't know what DVO is. Yeah.

CharlieYeah. Oh, yes, sorry, domestic violence order. Yes, um, using acronyms here, but, you know, no contact means it's not just a physical contact, it's the messaging, the telephoning, the emailing, the social media stuff, then that get breached. You know, you can go to jail over it. So, getting the lads and the um, men to understand that, um, goes a long way to keep these fellas out of jail and and keep them safe and their partner safe, yes.

KerryThere's a lot of assumptions made around what it, what does no contact mean.

CharlieYeah.

KerryUm, you know, particularly if there's not a, a set uh, space, you know, whether it's 300 meters or whatever that might be. Um, but yeah, okay, so that's your first topic.

CharlieThat's our first one, yep. Then now we do with the book. So, we're getting into the book but now, a lot of people, a lot of uh, men can't read and write. So, we, I ask the boys that sitting beside them if they can help help them out, um, which they do, which is really good. So, the first session is is "Roles of Dad." So, with the book, it's it's not there to, for me to go and mark after every session and say, "Kerry, you know, this is wrong, you need more information. This is right." There They're questions, there are easy questions like, "What what is a good father? What makes a good father?" Things like that, so our men can start thinking about that and putting it down on the paper. No right or wrong answer. And it's not a yes or no question either, you know. We got to get these lads thinking about it. So, I challenge them on that if they give me one little simple answer. I'll say, "Well, tell me a little bit more about that answer." And it's good to have about 8 to 12 men in the program so I can individually do that with the lads. Um, and it's also good to, you know, if one lad's got severe DV and another one's got something else, I can bring it all into one and we're not just attacking you, Kerry, for the DV. We're we're we're sharing the load, so...

KerryYeah.

CharlieSo, roles of dads, yeah, um, what sort of a um, role model did these fellas look up to when they were growing up? It's important we ask that because they found something in front of one of their role models that, you know, related to them and they felt good about them. So, we want to try and get that into instilled in themselves so their kids can that and have a positive role model.

KerryYeah, reflecting on that, you we often don't take time.

CharlieYeah.

KerryUm, and I'm just thinking about that now in terms of, you know, like motherhood and I have thought about who my role models are, but certainly what, down to the detail of the particular traits.

CharlieYeah.

KerryAnd then, and then the next step really is what made that trait so important to me.

CharlieThat's exactly right, yep. That's exactly right.

KerryNo, that's great. Yeah, okay, so that's the...

CharlieThat's the first session.

KerryThat's the first part of the book.

CharlieAh, the second session is "Communication with Children." But it's not just communication with children, it's communicating with child safety, the police, your children, your your partner, your community, your family members. So, we have a look at how they communicate, and uh, I often say when you, when you hear a knock on the door and you know it's the Department of Child Safety, you you're answering angrily and and, you know, stressful, which is understandable with our history and that intergenerational trauma with the Stolen Gen. But the first thing child safety are going to say, "You got anger issues," and there's a brick wall built up. So, you know, we got to be try and be calm and and and call respectfully. So, I ask them a question, "Kerry, what sort of communication styles don't you like?" And they say, "Nagging and threatening," [laughter] and all this sort of stuff. And um, I say, "Well, if you don't like that sort of communication style, why do you do it yourself? You know, if you do that sort of communication, it needs to stop." So, we and communication is a two-way...

KerryIt certainly is, yeah.

CharlieSo, you got to listen. I say, "What's another way of, what's another form of communication?" And they're all sitting there listening and they say, "A few other things." I said, "Well, what are you doing with me? You're listening. And that's what you got to do, you know. You if your kids comes up to you and you're watching TV and they want to have a conversation with you, turn off the TV, stop the TV, and talk to your child." So, communication is really big. The next the next session is "Connecting with your Children." So, you know, what is connecting? How do we connect? When can you connect with your children? Is it after mum's had baby? Is it while bub's in mum's tummy? When can we connect? Um, some of them say it's after, and I said, "No, well, you know, baby can hear and and sense a lot of stuff while they're in mum's bub, so why aren't you rubbing mum's bub and talking to baby? That way you keep mum, you know, not stressed and baby's not stressed. Don't go listen to AC/DC in the car because the baby will be bouncing around dancing and doing, you know, the Angus the Angus walk there, but..." [laughter]

Kerry[laughter]

CharlieBut yeah, so talking to baby while they're in mum's tub, that's connecting. When you take your kids to the park, you're connecting, you're bonding, but what else are they doing? They're creating memories. You know, a lot of us don't have a lot of good memories in our childhood, but there is a few good ones that we will always remember. And that's what they're doing when they go to the park, they're connecting, they're bonding, they're, you know, interacting, they're teaching, they're listening, they're learning, all that sort of stuff. So, that's a really good one with connecting. Then the next one, session four, is uh, "Behavior and Discipline." So, what is behavior, I ask them. What's behavior? "Oh, what we do every day." Yeah, but what's that? Is there a uh, something that contributes to make you behave that way? Is it stress? Is it family? Is it kids? Is there outside influence that can influence your behavior? Yeah, drugs, alcohol, that has a big influence. Um, your family has an influence on how you behave. Society has an influence. Um, money has an influence. The Ganjis, cops have an influence. Child safety have an influence. So, we're trying to look at um, all these stuff that influences behavior. Now, with discipline, a lot of us boys and probably ladies got growing up in the olden days got flogged a lot, can't do it now. So, how do we discipline our kids now? Communication, what we just learned, isn't it? You know, talking to your kids, saying what what are they doing is wrong and they shouldn't be doing it, and this is why. It could have consequences, you could get hurt, all that sort of stuff. So, discipline with our tongue, you know, standing them in the corner, take their iPads off them or something like that, but never hit them or or anything like that because that's just not the way to do it. So...

KerryStress and anger?

CharlieNow, anger is a um, an emotion that we all have. It's just how we handle our anger going forward. So, I like to identify their triggers, individually again. This is about you you know, Kerry, what what triggers you to make you angry.

KerryI guess can you just maybe explain, um, we do hear the term "trigger" a little bit, and what do you mean by trigger?

CharlieOh well, something that, you know, somebody might say something, um, or Something that sets you off maybe, or... Something, yeah, yeah, pushes your button, yeah. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. A lot of the blokes say their partners do that, um, a lot of the female say their partners do that, so... [laughter]

Kerry[laughter]

CharlieSo, we look at their triggers. And then um, of there's a little tool in that book that we use is the traffic light system. I talk to the boys about the traffic light. If you're driving down the road and you see the traffic lights and the lights turn red, don't go through it, it means stop. They might go through it if they're colorblind but [laughter] hope not. Um, but stop. So, if you feel yourself getting angry, you feel that you're being triggered, I want you to stop. Now, while you've stopped, you're sitting there idling, I want you to go for a walk, that's a yellow light I just say. Go for a 30-minute walk, let the endorphins out, you start cooling down, and think of a better way you could handle the situation that just triggered you. That might have been a bit of an argument with the old girl or something like that, so... What I want them to start thinking about is the different way that of doing it to keep them everybody in that household safe, creating new tools that they can um, use going forward.

KerryIt is amazing pressing the pause button.

CharlieIt is.

KerryIt doesn't mean that whatever you're argue, disagreeing about is over.

CharlieNo.

KerryBut it means you can go away and then come back to it.

CharlieYeah.

KerryAnd often when you're on that walk, you're actually thinking of other things or ideas that you may not have considered if you stayed in the heat of the moment...

CharlieThat's right.

Kerry...as well. So, yeah, that's that is a great strategy. Um, yeah, I like the traffic lights, yeah.

CharlieYeah. And then the green light is, Kerry, like you just said, think about what you're going to do and how you're going to go back home and implement it. You know, I've had blokes come back to me because I I do a little bit of homework with them, and you know, I don't really want them fighting with their partners or anything, but if anything comes up, use it, and go away, come back, and put it into place and see if that works. And a lot of them did, which was great.

KerryWhen they try it, you know, the first time, are people uh, surprised at what a difference it can make in that time? Yeah.

CharlieYeah, definitely, definitely. Definitely, um, I had a couple of serious lads come through, serious DV. I won't go into it, but I skipped all the first sessions when I first met them and went straight to this one.

KerryYeah.

CharlieSo, I gave them some tools to make sure their partner and children were safe when they went home. Um, and they come back the next week and told me it worked really well and they very thankful for it, so it's a simple thing that our men and anybody can use, but it's very effective, so...

KerryIt's crazy that, you know, in the school system or generally, you don't learn about how to manage your emotions and what, you know, everyone's going to argue at times for different reasons and it's and it's not that arguing's a bad thing, sometimes it helps you work through some stuff. Um, but yeah, they don't teach you some of these these skills, which we're actually all going to need at some point. So, you think it it should be compulsory that it's included.

CharlieI definitely, yeah, definitely think so, Kerry. Um, the other thing with our anger is the knee-jerk reaction response, you know. A lot of the boys don't know what a knee-jerk reaction is and it's that instant response to something happening, so, you know, doing that traffic light system helps them with that knee-jerk reaction, which will have a better outcome also going forward.

KerryHelp them not to get to the knee-jerk reaction, that's right.

CharlieThat's right. Um, then with the stress, we do the four-corner exercise, so we're looking at mental, social, emotional, and physical. So, what are what are some of the signs and symptoms of stress that affect you when you're under stress mentally? So, they write that down and we go through that, it might be headaches, might be sad, um, angry. So, we do that, we write that down, then then over the page, we do the four-corner exercises again, so the question is, "How you going to manage those things under mental, emotional, social, and physical to, you know, to handle your stress?" And I use a good thing when I used to see a psychologist was we get pressures on us which is a stress, um, instead of thinking about it all the time and having it at the front of your, side of your, and back of your head all the time, is go to close your eyes, go to a place where you feel safe, comfortable. Um, I picked a Toomelah because that's at the back of the old Toomelah there and um, she said, "Well, go there, process your thoughts, grab a leaf or bit of bark, put them thoughts on the on the bark, and put it in the river and let it go."

KerryMm.

CharlieSo, they're processing it, it's still there, but it's not as bad, they're not they're not as focused on it. So, we look at that, um, we look at the iceberg, all that sort of stuff.

KerryAh, yeah, some great techniques there and theories. I guess that makes it an evidence-based program as well...

CharlieYeah, yeah, definitely.

Kerry...um, which is good because you're bringing culture together with, you know, some proven ways where things can actually change our psychological or our psychology, you know, as we, you know, walk through life. So, do we get to the sixth one? Did we make it to the end?

CharlieSo, the last session is around um, "Personal Growth and Relationships." So, after going through all that stuff what we just done through for the last six seven weeks, we actually talk about what are healthy relationships and what they look like. What are the ingredients for a healthy relationship? And they also say like, "Communication," you know, "and love, and connecting." So, they're all learning what the other sessions were all about.

KerryYeah.

CharlieThat's good. And then we want to really focus on what now? What's next for you guys? You know, and um, we want to set we want to have a 10-year plan or 10-year goal, but we need to do those smaller goals to get there to achieve the bigger one, and we don't want to set them up for failure. So, you know, we we discuss it very logically and what's achievable for them men and we go from there. And that's where that one-on-one case managing stuff comes in outside of that program is, "Okay, this is what you want to do. I'm here to support you to get there. That it's your journey. We'll take as long as you need to, and we'll get there in the end."

KerryUm, so great. So, the support goes on after...

CharlieOh, yeah.

Kerry...those six weeks, yeah.

CharlieYeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still supporting blokes, all they're just ringing me 14 years up from now, which is great.

KerryIt's amazing. Yeah.

CharlieIt is. Um, then we have a graduation, Kerry. So, we buy the food, um, More food. [laughter] Yeah. [laughter] We buy the barbecue meat, we have it in the park,

KerryYeah.

CharlieYeah, my job's done, my role's done. I've done it for the last 7 weeks. Now it's their turn, so these guys, they've got to prep the salad, cook the meat, serve their guests, then they can sit down and have a feed, and then we do a presentation of certificates and all that sort of stuff. So, very proud and...

KerryYeah, that sound, yeah, it sounds um, very great, and certainly I can feel the journey um, that you go on. One of the things that uh, resonated with me when you talked um, at the conference was that you said you showed, part of the, in the programs, you show the men a video of, you know, like what poor behavior can look like in a relationship, and how um, how people who are watching it are agreeing, and they're saying, "Yeah, that's kind of terrible," but like, that...

CharlieYeah, yes.

Kerry...disconnect between, you know, they're watching it and saying, "That's terrible, and, you know, who would do something like that?"

CharlieYeah, yeah.

KerryAnd then the next conversation, yeah, if you, you know, seeing something that somebody else doing it is usually, you know, a good way for you to kind of learn about yourself in some ways. But yeah, you you did talk about that and I was really surprised with some of the men's comments that you said as they were watching the video.

CharlieYeah, yeah, they do they do it it does hit home with them. Um, yeah, I suppose seeing somebody else do it, they until it sinks in, I think, then they realize that they may have been doing it, you know.

KerryIs there a long time between when people like when if they're watching it, that disconnect, and then, you know, how do you process when you actually start to think I actually have participated in some of those behaviors? Then, you know, that's a really difficult thing to own.

CharlieFor behavior change stuff, you got to you got to look at people and read body language and understand what's happening around them and within them, and I do that. I sit back behind the guys and on I'm secretly watching them, um, and watching their body language. And you, and you watching the DVD and some boys will their head'll drop a little bit um, when so when a topic comes up, or their head'll drop a lot, um, you know, and you know straight away that, yep, they're feeling bad, shamed, or or guilty. So, that prompts me to have that conversation with all of them at the end of it um, around, you know, "Do you see yourself doing that? Is is this what's happened? Have you seen that?" Also they got to, I remind them they got to self-care, Kerry, after that DVD because if they are doing or if they don't perpetrate violence, then they've probably grown up up around it and seen it, so it's all about self-care after it. And you know when we do psychologist appointments, uh, probably about 3 hours later you you start feeling different and stuff like that. So,...

KerryStart to process it, don't you? It take it takes time. Um, and that's probably what's great about the program is not only is it the journey of understanding it, but there's really practical ways and things that like you said, people can put in place straight away. So, if you recognize people are struggling, you can move the program around to give them those tools early. Um, and I know you haven't gone through all the tools, and that but that's just an example of one of them, yeah.

CharlieYeah, yeah. But that's what's deadly about a Blackfella program, isn't it? It's that flexibility, you know. Um, if somebody's struggling with something and or somebody's going to be unsafe in that household, then I got the capabilities of just jumping sessions and getting straight into something that can help them um, or keep everybody safe and all that sort of stuff. So, yeah.

KerryRight, thank you. So, are you happy, um, if we've got anyone that's, you know, wanting to find out more about the program, if we put them in touch or I mean they can jump onto your website and get to you that way, is that possible? We'll try and put something, yeah, in in the notes so that people can see that. Thanks, Charlie.

CharlieThat's fine, Kerry.

KerrySo, maybe a more, I've just got a more personal question for you.

CharlieYeah.

KerryAnd that's, as you're doing um, your work, how do you remain connected to your country, and what and I guess within that, what's culture mean for you?

CharlieUh, culture means, um, look, my dad was white and mum was black, but grew up in both culture. So, I lived out on the mish um, a few years with mum and dad. I just I just feel it in my heart that I'm, um, I'm a Blackfella and I went out to um, Toomelah, it's a, it's, yes, Toomelah, it's got sand on the riverbank out at Boggabilla there. And yeah, um, I walked across the old bridge and I felt this sense of connection I've never felt before, and I think it was my grandfather supporting me and telling me I'm doing what I need to do. The connection, uh, or culture is everything. I live and breathe culture every day. I want to be involved in our culture, I want to teach our culture, I want to support our culture. It's a beautiful culture, and I want to educate people around our culture, so, you know, I don't want my great-great-grandchildren being raised in a racist um, community um, as we were back in the day. So, I like educating the young people at daycares, I do that a lot, um, around our culture. So, culture's everything. What I do with the men is everything. That's why I come to work, I love doing that work, so, yeah.

KerryWell, thanks Charlie. It's a really powerful program and a really powerful way uh, to support families in the community to create safer spaces, which is certainly what we're about. And it's great to see and hear about the results, and thank you uh, for creating such a great program, and thank you for coming on and sharing it with us today.

CharlieOh, look, Kerry, no, don't thank me, I want to thank you guys because you do a lot of great work. And it's good to get people like myself on your podcast to get um, programs out in community that people may not know about and and could use, you know, so. And I'm very honored to be asked to come along with this podcast, I know you got stars all over the country, but um, to be one, that's great. [laughter]

KerryYou certainly are one of them, yeah.

CharlieNo, thank you, and um, appreciate the listeners who are going to listen to this, and like Kerry said, uh, details if you want to know more about the program will be in the messages or notes, so, please, all stay safe and take care.

KerryYeah, likewise. Thanks, Charlie.

Outro/MusicIf you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800 RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate, and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.