Genuine Allyship

Intro/NarratorWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong, and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations advocates against family violence CEO, Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

KerryWelcome back to Daa'ring Yarning. I respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the lands I'm coming to you from today, the Gurung Gurung people, and pay my respects to elders past and present. For they hold the memories, traditions, and culture and hopes of Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander people. I recognize their continuing connection to our land, water, and community. Welcome back to Daa'ring Yarning. I'm your host, Kerry. A few weeks ago, we had the privilege of speaking with Tosha Sambo, the deputy CEO of the Family Violence Legal Service Aboriginal Corporation, known as FVLSA. Today, we are continuing that narrative by bringing the organization's CEO, John Tonkin, into the conversation. John brings a unique perspective on what genuine allyship looks like as a non-Indigenous leader within an Aboriginal community-controlled organization. In this episode, we discuss the realities of expanding their footprint across South Australia, the outcomes of the recent Royal Commission, and the importance of making space, not noise. Let's dive in.

JohnUh thanks, Kerry. So, John Tonkin, I'm the CEO for the Family Violence Legal Service Aboriginal Corporation. So, based in Port Lincoln, one wonderful part of the Eyre Peninsula.

KerryYes, it certainly is. We were there last year. And I guess, for uh people who are listening, we spoke with uh Tosha Sambo, who's the deputy CEO from... how do you... how do you say the acronym?

JohnFVLSA.

KerryFVLSA. So from FVLSA, um a couple of weeks ago, uh and we thought it'd be a great opportunity to bring um John into the conversation today. John is a non-Indigenous CEO of an Aboriginal organization, Aboriginal community-controlled organization that's addressing um family violence. And you know, we've had quite a few conversations around allyship and how non-Indigenous people and/or non-Indigenous organizations can support the community-controlled or ACCO sector, and more specifically, gender-based violence. So we thought it would be really great to have you on just to share your experiences and what you've learned. And we know there's multiple ways uh that this can be done, uh but when people are asking the question, they're really unsure how to engage and what it could potentially look like. So that's what I'm hoping part of what we can explore today, along with uh when we had Tosha on, we got her to talk about a specific project that you guys are doing, whereas I'm going to ask you to talk a little bit broader about what your organization is trying to achieve. So we might um dig in if you're ready to go.

JohnHappy to, um Kerry. I just hope I can be as articulate as Tosha. Um she did an awesome job.

KerryYeah, she did, and I'm sure you'll be fine. So let's let's turn our page first to um allyship as I talked about. And I guess from an individual point of view, or your experience as a non-Indigenous person working in this sector, what advice or ideas do you have um about how you're leading the sector and some of the things that you're trying to do to help build capacity um across our sector?

JohnYeah, um thanks, Kerry. I guess the first thing for me was I don't I definitely did not fully understand what allyship was about um when I first started, and I think until you're actually in the work, um that's probably true for a lot of people. Um and um the other bit of honesty is um stepping into the ACCO space as a non-Indigenous person um is quite humbling. So, uh for our Aboriginal for our Aboriginal board members to trust a white male to come in and help guide an organization like FVLSA, um a, takes courage from them, and something that I won't forget. So, I guess it's fair to say I came into thinking I knew a few things. Um don't lack a bit of confidence um there, but pretty quickly realized that um there's a whole lot I don't know. Um

KerrySo, so just before you go on, just probably ask you, so what were some of the things that you thought allyship was about before you came into the role?

JohnUh so, I I just thought it was a straight um commercial partnership relationship, Kerry. Um you know, coming from um you know, a business um background, uh that was what it about that's what it was about. It was about a contract, it was about, you know, counting widgets, um but it's clearly not that. And it's still something I'm learning about. Um The relationship is is itself um really significant in there. So that's something I continue to work on. I don't always get it right. Um absolutely not. And I think part of that is having courage to not shy away from it um when you don't get it right. I guess if there was a bit of advice for an individual, it's maybe um prepare to be challenged. If you're doing doing it right, um it's going to be probably uncomfortable at times.

KerrySure.

JohnCertainly has been for me as an individual. But that's not a bad thing, and I think that is part of the growth that we work through.

KerryAnd I dare say your board probably saw that in you at the interview, that you had a willingness to be open to learn, because that would be really important to someone who's coming into a role who doesn't understand where the journey is going to take you.

JohnYeah, I hope so. I hope so, Kerry. I uh yeah, I was lucky enough coming into the role that um I personally knew um some of the board members from my youth, um growing up in Ceduna. So, and that was lovely to know that they knew who I was and where I come from. Um And I and maybe that that helped um with the trust. But yeah, look, that that was um I felt really um quite honored and humbled to be given the opportunity. So, there's always something that comes along to remind you uh that there's more to learn in this space.

KerrySo then I guess now projecting forward, that was what you thought part of the role might have been, talk us through um a little bit, I guess, about what you've learned in terms of uh what's what you're trying to do to support the sector from your point of view now in this role.

JohnIt's more about what how I I'm trying to go about it, Kerry. Like, um I think making space, not noise, is something that I I think about.

KerryThat's nice, I like that, yeah.

JohnAnd even when it feels tricky or unfamiliar, um back the Aboriginal leadership that we've got in place, um whether that be our staff, our employees, or our board, or, you know, leaders within the community. Um really really learning to um to back that in. I try and walk gently. I can be I mean, I'm not a small bloke and I I can talk loudly and I can hold opinions, um and I'm really conscious of that. So I try and make sure that I walk gently and give people space to engage uh with me. So, I'm curious. Um I hope I'm humble and um respectful, I think, the way I sort of try and go about it. Um in this organization, yeah.

KerryYeah, that sounds great. And I and I guess having really strong leadership from the board, community, and staff, when you pull that all together, it helps everyone to move forward um together, which is a really special space to get an organization where you have all those trusted relationships. It's kind of the magic about how it all works. All right, great. Thank you. So moving on to uh FVLSA more specifically, um can you tell me about um your service and the support your team provides to the Aboriginal communities across South Australia? So just maybe the areas that you reach out to and etc., yeah.

JohnClearly, we're an Aboriginal community-controlled organization. We support women and children experiencing family violence across a large geographic section of South Australia. So currently, we have um offices in Port Augusta, Ceduna, and Port Lincoln. So if you're looking at a map, that's the northwestern part of South Australia. Um It's a big part, lots of distance between communities. We feel like it's the size of a small country sometimes, um the amount of travel that our our people do. We are on a journey of expansion, so we have been given an opportunity um through our latest funding agreement to uh expand the services that we deliver. So we're um in the first phase of that, so we're looking at um opening an office in Adelaide early in the new year, which is really um quite daunting for us, but exciting at the same time, um Kerry. Yeah, um

KerryAnd, sorry, I just I was thinking cuz the southwest was lacking services as well, will that be will you have enough funding to reach out there with this expansion or not?

JohnYes, we have. Um really um So it's a it's a phased expansion for us. We're a small organization, so um this expansion effectively almost doubles um our staff and footprint. So as part of that, um we will also this the phased expansion will happen over a 3-year period. So we'll open Adelaide first, followed in year 2 with Mount Gambier, and year 3 in Murray Bridge. So, um that's that that southeast eastern part of the state. Once that sort of settles in, then I guess we're always open for discussion about where next. Um I hope it's successful for us. I'm sure it will be. I'm sure it will be.

KerrySo, in the expansion, do you have an idea on like staffing numbers, so people listening might go is that an extra 300 staff? Is that an extra...

JohnWe're a pretty small team, so I think we do pretty well for the staff we got. So at the moment, we currently got 18, and it looks like we'll be somewhere around the 30 to 35 when we're fully resourced, Kerry.

KerryYeah, so that's not very many staff to cover such a big footprint, which is why I wanted to highlight it, because people wouldn't know whether you had, yeah, 300 staff or thinking oh, that's great, they've doubled their staff, but...

JohnYeah, I think it's a bit daunting for our staff when they they think about it a bit, like, um but I I need to remind them, they've been doing a fantastic job for a long time, you know, and all we want to do is replicate what we're doing in a new place. So,

KerryWell, it's been working so well, so that's great that the other parts of the state will have access um to some more supports. So, how does So, you guys provide legal and non-legal, how does your service differ from a mainstream legal service provider? What is it that you guys do that's so different?

JohnThere's only a very small bit of us that's the same, I think, as a mainstream legal clinic, Kerry. I think there's none of this 30-minute appointment, see you in 2 months stuff that goes on. The team um take the time to fully understand the story with the people that are seeking our assistance. We spend a lot of time out in community, um and at events. And I think, I keep coming back to this, but I think um our governance makes a big difference. I think being um an ACCO and board made of people who live in the community, understand the culture and the reality of what's happening on the ground, you cannot undersell it. You cannot undersell it. Certainly keeps me honest in my role. We don't just look at the legal side of it, um there's a lot of stuff that sits around the non-legal um for people, you know, whether it be housing, or finance, or health, there's a lot of lot of stuff that need to be considered as part of the the legal matter itself. So, um that's something that we do and do pretty well, I think.

KerryAnd one of the things that I have heard about is that um like you talked about spending time, and is that time limited to, you know, 6 months or 12 months, or, you know, what if someone wants, you know, support them through the whole process? So I guess what what we have heard is that some people go and access services, and they can only get a piece of that support, you know, maybe around family law or something, and then that looks could be filling out forms or helping them with that court process. What is it that um so I guess how long will you work with somebody for, and is there a limit to what you can't do in those whole court proceedings?

JohnWe don't uh define our service by a time limit um with the client. We will spend the time that we need to to see out um the legal matter, and even if there is some support required post the legal matter, we will assist there. Obviously, there are there are times when we do need to move on. I guess our biggest um restriction is our solicitor base, so they can only work with so many legal matters. So there's there comes a time where our support team also need to to move into to new clients. So, um but we provide support for as long as it's practically needed um to see the matter through.

KerryOkay, and then it's the whole gamut, so they have someone that would help them attend court if they needed, or, you know, go to the hospital if needed, and all those bits and pieces. Yeah, okay.

JohnYes. All of those things, Kerry, yeah yeah. Um anytime sit in um meetings, or whatever support's needed. Uh we really don't put a a limit on that, um

KerrySo if you had more solicitors, you could clearly support more people. Moving on to probably something a little bit different is that you and Tosha, your deputy CEO, have been heavily involved in the Royal Commission into Domestic, Family and Sexual Violence in South Australia recently. Um it was announced 2 years ago. What has been involved with all of that, and what do you see is going to come from that Royal Commission? How will that impact community, what will they see differently?

JohnSo first up, um I feel uh it's due recognition's got to go to Tosha here, Kerry, she she did a power of work and engagement. Far as um involvement, look, we we made a submission, um we were part of community consultations, uh we had the commissioner visited our office on a number of occasions, uh we participated in roundtables, so there was quite a bit of engagement, not just from me, but from the whole team, and particularly Tosha. I guess our job was really to make sure that the Aboriginal voices were heard clearly and loudly in the process. Um Uh to hear directly from those people, I think, was important for the commissioner to know where the systems are failing and where it causes harm.

KerrySo as part of your role, I guess, with people who are accessing your service, do you get access, do you get to hear stories and really understand what some of the challenges and the barriers are, so you're able to provide case studies, or you were able to connect people directly with the commissioner to tell their stories? How did that work or look, yeah.

JohnThat's correct, Kerry. And also, and convey when people weren't comfortable doing it directly themselves. So being able to to listen, and where people gave us permission, convey their information through to the commission. So,

KerryThere were a lot of recommendations that came out. Do you how many can you remember?

JohnOh, I think there's 100 plus, Kerry, that sat in there. If I was trying to wrap it up in a in a few points, and this is really selfish, um is proper recognition of um the Family Prevention Legal Service model, um Great. Proper funding stability. And I say that knowing that we have got a 5-year agreement in place with the Attorney-General's Department at the moment. So that um, I'm and I'm not being disrespectful of that, that's the longest agreement we've had in place for a while. It's really allowed us to plan out for 5 years. Here, we're always looking to what happens after 5 years, and I think that funding stability's really important. And I think a more coordinated system. I guess the final piece would be just the recognition of how difficult it is to deliver services out in regional remote areas for us.

KerryYeah, which would, you know, if prior to the uh one of the other questions was what are the biggest challenges? So, we have these recommendations now from the Royal Commission, we have a model that we know that works, not only well we'll go through some of the challenges, but how do we bring those two together to ensure that the recommendations are put in place to bridge, you know, the challenges. So, I guess the challenges are the geographical spread, what else would you see as some of the challenges in delivering your model?

JohnI think the number one challenge for us is um recruitment of solicitors. We know our model works, um we know that the community respond to us. However, to find a person to come out in the regional South Australia with all the caveats around uh passionate, being resilient, able to, you know, don't mind the occasional long drive, which is like selling it pretty short, because there's lots of occasional long drives out there, is really hard. And while those of us that live and work out here absolutely don't understand why people don't want to come, because we think it's the best, you know, best place in the world, um I do understand how tough that is uh for someone to up-stumps and move out. So, I think a part of that may resolve itself a little bit in in when we open an Adelaide office, that may well give us access to a greater pool of solicitors, but it still doesn't solve the issue uh of uh the distance involved. So, you know, uh getting people out,

KerrySo this is your opportunity, I guess, to, if people are listening or solicitors are listening, why would they come and work for you guys? What is it that you offer that's, you know, that's going to be fantastic um for them?

JohnThe number one, um I think, is just the scope of work that you're able to participate in as a solicitor. Mhm. So, we talk about our legal service all the time, but there's this other big piece of work that we undertake, um around community legal education and early prevention. Delivering uh that to community, consistently the feedback we get from our solicitors and our employees are really worthwhile thing to participate in. So, um to be out in the community, um delivering events like Sister to Sister, or Healthy Relationships, Love Colors, Yarning Cards, all of those programs that we run is really satisfying for people. Um And I think Something a little bit different, yeah. Yeah. And not only do you get to do those things, you also get to do it in one of the most beautiful regions in Australia. Um you know, maybe I'm a little bit biased, but we got a we got a fantastic coastline, you've got the the Flinders Ranges, um the Gawler Ranges, that like the outback South Australia experience, um really have got it all. And, you know, our solicitors can one day be, you know, looking out across the water at Boston Bay and the next day looking at the red sand dunes, you know, north of Port Augusta. Um so,

KerryMight have to watch out, Tourism SA might be coming to get you now.

JohnYeah.

KerryThe other thing is the team, I guess, that you're not isolated as a solicitor, you're working with other non-legal professionals to help deliver kind of that holistic package, which makes it something that's a shared workload.

JohnYeah, that's right. Our client support officers, our client intake, our reception people, yeah, yeah, whole gamut.

KerryWe're probably going to come be coming to the end, um and I'd just like to hear maybe one of your proudest moments in your role so far.

JohnThat's a good question, Kerry. It's probably the little things. I know that sounds like a bit of a cop-out maybe, but it is the little things. I really proud of the way our people show up every day for our clients, you know, and there's some tough days in this work. I'm not going to sugarcoat that. There's some tough stories that you see and hear, but the way people continue to show up and what they do for our clients is I'm just honestly in awe of um how that happens sometimes, Kerry.

KerryYeah, that's great.

JohnI feel like I'm a little removed from it sometimes, so I don't I don't get the full, you know, brunt of that, but um I certainly respect it. I'm also proud of the bigger picture stuff, uh in respect of our expanding footprint. So, progress towards a statewide um service is really um something I'm proud of. Yeah.

KerryYeah, and I think it just goes to show the recognition of the work that you're doing, and then to have it formally recognized through the commission's report, and then now have an injection of funds acknowledging, you know, we always need more, but really looking at your staff levels, you definitely need more. But it feels like you're on the precipice of that now, so people are recognizing the model, South Australia sees it as a model, you've got your 5-year contract, so we just need the people to come, the recruitment to come, and then expand all the great ideas.

Outro/NarratorThat was John Tonkin, CEO of FVLSA, joining us from Port Lincoln. It is inspiring to hear about their funding stability and the upcoming expansion into Adelaide, Mount Gambier, and Murray Bridge. A key takeaway from our chat, and a direct call-out to our listeners, is that they are actively looking for solicitors. If you are a legal professional looking for a sea change and want to work within a holistic model that truly supports community, this could be the opportunity for you. If you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800 RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate, and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.