From Community to Courtroom

Intro Music / VoiceoverWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations advocates against family violence, CEO Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

Kerry StainesWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the Goreng Goreng people where I am on today. I'd like to pay my respects to the elders, past and present, for they hold the memories, traditions, the culture, and the hopes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I recognize their continuing connection to our land, water, and community. I'd also like to acknowledge all the communities where everyone is listening from today, and I hope you're enjoying our podcast.

Kerry StainesWelcome to all our listeners again today. We're excited that we have Ainsley Frost, who is a solicitor with the Aboriginal Family Legal Services in Queensland. They provide a family violence prevention and legal services through the Southeast Queensland region and over to the western border of the state. Welcome, Ainsley, to probably your first podcast in talking, not listening.

Ainsley FrostYes, thank you, Kerry. Yes, it is my first podcast talking, but I'm happy to be here.

Kerry StainesGreat. It's great to have you. Now, Ainsley, where's your mob? Where are you from?

Ainsley FrostUh, so my mob is the Anaiwan mob. So they are the custodians of the Northern Tablelands of New South Wales, so around the Armidale region.

Kerry StainesOh, very nice. Nice part of the world.

Ainsley FrostYes, very beautiful.

Kerry StainesAll right. So today we want to talk to you a little bit about your role, and the reason that we came across you or met with you is that you attended an Emerging Leaders Day. You know, you're an up-and-coming young person in the sector, and then accessing training and what we've provided. So we're just keen to hear a little bit about your journey into the role as a solicitor, and then we'll also talk about the Emerging Leaders Day and what you got out of that. So let's just kick off with your qualifications and why you decided to become a solicitor.

Ainsley FrostI actually never planned to be a lawyer. I thought it would be the worst career ever (laughs). But actually, no. Well, for me, it was personal. So my dad passed away when I was only 14.

Kerry StainesOh, that's sad.

Ainsley FrostAnd yeah, and the issues between family members regarding estate administration, I just thought, this is just crazy. I met my first solicitor at 14, and she handled all of my dad's estate. And I thought, "You've lifted so much stress off my mother's shoulders. I want to be you." And then, yeah, ended up going to law school in 2017, graduated in 2020, became admitted to the Supreme Court of Queensland in Brisbane in July 2021. And I'd like to say majority of my career has been around advocacy. I've always been a bit fiery about helping our people and, you know, helping them when they're going through the worst parts of their lives. I love—I love what I do.

Kerry StainesSo for, um, for me and probably some other listeners, when you become a lawyer, do you become a lawyer in a certain area? Or do you just choose where you're going to specialize? I mean, so you talked a little bit about wills, and now you're in family violence. So can you do all of those things?

Ainsley FrostAs a solicitor, once you've completed that degree and you're admitted, it's pretty free-range. I mean, as a junior, you're kind of told what you need to do, and that's where you learn from. But you always just make sure you tell your mentors, your leaders, that, you know, you've got an interest in a certain area, and you can delve into that. So there's—there's nothing in particular you have to—you can do. You can do whatever you like in law (laughs).

Kerry StainesYeah, okay. That's great. Well, it's something that I've learned today, for sure. All right. So what drew you to the FVPLS sector? Specifically, I mean, I don't know if you lived around—so are you—which office are you based in? Whereabouts are you based?

Ainsley FrostI'm based in the Murgon office in the South Burnett.

Kerry StainesRight. So did you—were you already living in the South Burnett region? Or was this—the role drew you out there?

Ainsley FrostNo, I was already living here. Actually, my previous role, um, I was a case worker for women and children going through domestic violence. I've always had a really big passion for DV, only because it's always been considered a personal issue, a home issue, when really it impacts workplaces, it impacts schools, it impacts our daily life. So that's kind of why I've come to this role because I love helping mob and love supporting clients who—who really need it.

Kerry StainesWell said. That's right. It's not just in the home, it is far more reaching than what people realize, and then the effects of that, they have that flow-on. So, um, it's a really good point that you draw out. Recently, you attended QIFVPLS's Emerging Leaders Day. I guess it was probably hard to understand what it was that was going to occur on that day. Was it what you expected, and I guess, what did you learn from that day? What were you able to take away from that?

Ainsley FrostThe highlight from that day would be hearing from the speakers and the elders, and in particular, was learning about our sector strengthening plan. It's nice to know that we have a plan moving forward. And I didn't realize how many of us under QIFVPLS actually do work together. Like, I'm new to AFLSQ, new to a community legal center, actually. I've always worked in private firms. And just to seeing that we all have the same vision and goal, like sitting in that room, I can't explain that feeling to anyone. I really can't. Like, it's just so empowering.

Kerry StainesOne of the things that we do talk about is although all the family violence prevention legal services are all really different, there really is a sisterhood.

Ainsley FrostThere absolutely is, and I felt it that day.

Kerry StainesYeah, that's great. Because it's—it is important that, you know, we work together to try and change gender-based violence, and that we do it in a really appropriate way for each community, which is, you know, looking at how services have adapted to their community, or, you know, have been grown from their community. It's really powerful, and you can learn lots of different things from each service. So, I mean, that's the importance of bringing people together. So, I'm glad that you were able to get that from that experience, because it certainly is something that I think is shared by many services. Reflecting on—on your experience of the day, and what you learned, has there been or what have been the useful things that you've been able to take back to your service?

Ainsley FrostI think, not so much something that I learned, but hearing from the speakers—and there was that lady who spoke, and I cannot recall her name—but she was discussing her lived experience. And then we had the commissioner come up, and she, I think it was the commissioner, came up and did her—her speech.

Kerry StainesYeah, the Children's Commissioner for WA, yes, yes.

Ainsley FrostThat's right. I think that that really hit me. The statistics she was saying, and this other lady who gave her lived experience, like, it made me realize that the work that we do isn't just paper work and basic legal work. Like, we need to make sure we are providing a holistic approach to areas of domestic violence, to child protection, because it's not cut and clear like our traditional law firms. You kind of help with your matter and then off they go. It made me realize how much work we have to put in to be able to support these clients because they have multiple barriers and like, multiple complex issues. And we can't resolve it on our own. We need to band together, we need to work together, and we need to provide a wrap-around service for our mob.

Kerry StainesYeah, and I—I do hear that, you know, that's what when you're trying to explain what the FVPLS service delivers, it's really hard for people to understand. You can explain the legal component, essentially, you know, in supporting people, and I mean even going to court is something that's different to what the other services provide, is doing that court support. Uh, but you know, all the early intervention, and prevention, and recovery, and then the different layers. You could have a family member where one person, you know, you're doing early intervention, prevention, whereas someone else you're representing, and somebody else you're in recovery. You know, through that kinship model. So, yeah, certainly we do hear from a lot of people we're trying to explain what does the FVPLS service do. It's really hard to kind of talk about it. So in terms of AFLSQ, what would look like early intervention and prevention from AFLSQ's point of view?

Ainsley FrostEarly intervention and prevention... Um, well, the best part about our law firm is that we're not just a traditional law firm. We actually have, you know, we've got our men's programs. We're able to do referrals to whoever we need to. The best part about being out here in Murgon and working with the community out here in Cherbourg is that we have that flexibility to be assisting clients with prevention, not just legal work. So that looks like us going out to Cherbourg to sit with a client, um, who has got concerns regarding domestic violence. We can provide a wrap-around service by giving them that referral to a support place or, you know, to get some refuge. And also, Bam Bam Mura, the program that Charlie Rowe runs, he focuses a lot on prevention. You know, it's—it's to help these men, um, change their behaviors and learn what to do moving forward. You know, I think—I think it's so special that we have that.

Kerry StainesWe are interviewing Charlie soon for an upcoming podcast to talk about his men's program, so we won't go too much into that, or else we'll take his light (laughs).

Ainsley FrostYeah, no spoilers. No spoilers, that's it. (laughs)

Kerry StainesNo spoilers, that's it, yeah. So another thing that the day focused on was the networking, hearing from the other sisters, but also about individual professional development for all the young leaders there, or all the emerging leaders there. Um, was there any activity that happened on that day that you think was particularly insightful, or helped you reflect on where you're at in your journey?

Ainsley FrostWe did the Wheel of Life goal setting. And that really helped me on where I've come from, where I am now, and where I want to go, um, especially in a career aspect. That was really, really helpful. It kind of set out the plan right in front of me. Um, so that—that was really beneficial for career planning. I think the most that I actually took out of the conference, Kerry, was just being in a room full of all of those leaders and being able to just go up to anyone and be like, "What is—what was your experience? What is your experience? How do you manage this in your firm?" Just that—just all that learning just from being face-to-face with people was just incredible.

Kerry StainesYeah, it's certainly valued and often underrated, just that time to connect and see how other organizations operate and their programs. So, yeah, keen for that to keep being a focus as we move forward. Your group of emerging leaders workshoped and developed an Emerging Leaders Statement on the day, which we did put up on our socials and shared with the larger group the next day. What do you think its purpose was, and how do you think by doing that statement, we can influence the FVPLS sector and/or, you know, the more broader sector? How do you think we can also use that statement? And we might actually attach, if we can, in the kind of in the show notes somewhere, the actual Emerging Leaders Statement, so if people are interested, they can actually read. Because from my point of view, it was—it's so great to hear from people who are coming into the sector, where they—they think we need to be challenged in moving forward. So where would you like, and your—your group, where do you think you're hoping that that statement could be used?

Ainsley FrostWell, one, that statement captures a shared vision for the kind of family violence sector we want to help build. As I said earlier, family violence really has become a thing, I guess you would say, a social issue over the last few years. As I said, it used to be a home issue, a family issue. You don't speak about it to your friends or your work colleagues or anything, you know, that's your home life. So that statement captures a shared vision for, yeah, the kind of domestic violence family sector we want to help build, that is trauma-informed, culturally safe, collaborative, and centered on the voices and needs of victim-survivors. Um, essentially, the future needs to be holistic. The future of this sector needs to be holistic. We need to be able to work with the police. We need to be able to work with the hospitals, with the mental health supports that we have locally. Because if there's barriers, that's all our clients are going to keep facing.

Kerry StainesJust thinking about what you're saying, there's two things that raise for me. One is locally on the ground, it's how you build those relationships with your local police force and mental health, etc. And then there's the other layer, which is the systems and how we get them to work together, you know, like if it is the Queensland Police and the child protection and housing, etc., what we need to change at that level to make it easier for people on the ground. And one—one of the things that we do often it happens when you're looking at those system-level changes is the consultation with community. So part of the challenge, I think, is, you know, we have a very tired community of being consulted. From your perspective, I'd be keen to hear, you know, what's a way—and this is, you know, a complete question off the cuff—what would—what would be an idea, it doesn't have to be the solution to solve the world, that, you know, how do you get information from community about what's happening on the ground to influence what's happening systemically without having to keep, you know, or what's a better way to do consultation, maybe, um, that can actually give those voices?

Ainsley FrostIt starts by having people who genuinely care in our sector. That's where it starts. So, I would be getting out into community and asking clients, potential clients, or anyone in the community, what—what issues are we facing, what, you know, what are you facing when you come see a lawyer or a doctor or, you know, a mental health clinician or housing. And I've actually had clients say to me, they don't talk. No one talks to each other. And that's why I'm so, in my practice, if I need information from the hospital, just request it. I'll go up and introduce myself, put a face to a name, and say, "My name is Ainsley Frost and I am a solicitor with the Aboriginal Family Legal Service. I support this client. Um, let's work together." And I've been able to do that for a lot of my clients, especially in the domestic violence sector, because we know it's not just lawyers and police involved in DV matters. It's family, it's friends, it's the other stakeholders such as support services, um, housing.

Kerry StainesSo maybe, yeah, linking into those, um, not just the people that care, but those champions in the community that are already working some of the systems on the ground. It's—it's much quicker to identify what some of the barriers are, um, and although like you said, you've got solutions in that community, another community might go to a hospital and they'll go, "No, not—not giving it to you." So, you know, changing it at the top. But I think that that's—that is certainly another way around is connecting through, through those community champions, you know, as well as, as well as elders in the community, etc.

Ainsley FrostThey are so important, our elders. They're the key to all of the knowledge.

Kerry StainesThey certainly are, uh, which—which brings me onto really looking at your connection with culture. Um, so just talking a little bit about culture, you know, what does it mean for you, and how do you keep it front and center or present, or, you know, how do you connect with your community kind of in every—your walking in everyday life?

Ainsley FrostSo, culture for me personally just means knowing where I come from, respecting my elders, my people, respecting the land that I'm on. I l-—love to listen to my elders because that's—that's how we learn, by listening. I love listening to them about their stories, their struggles, their great moments. And I also like to make spaces for those stories. I always try to adopt cultural practices, you know, even the little things. Sometimes our mob don't like making eye contact, and that's okay. Having silence in consultations isn't a sign of disrespect, sometimes people need that, and that is okay. It's about just being—culture for me is just about being mindful of our experiences, whether good or bad, and supporting one another, talking, connecting. That's what it's all about.

Kerry StainesAinsley, in terms of AFLSQ, if people have got any questions, how can they reach you guys?

Ainsley FrostYeah, so if anyone has any questions regarding, you know, domestic violence, child protection, family law, um, we can be contacted on our office phone numbers. We have offices in Roma, Toowoomba, Gympie, and Murgon. Um, you can also check us out on our Facebook page. We have an Instagram page. Um, and I'm on LinkedIn if anyone wants to spin a yarn, um, ask any questions, I'm here.

Kerry StainesAll right, great. Thank you for your time today, and, um, all the best with your future endeavors. It's very inspiring to see, you know, how you have been working in this sector at such a young age, and how passionate you are. So thank you for what you do for the sector as well.

Ainsley FrostThanks.

Outro Music / VoiceoverIf you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800RESPECT for a referral for a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in this episode, please follow, rate, and share with a friend or colleague who would enjoy it too. Until next time, take care.