Building Cultural Bridges

Intro AudioWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning, a gathering place for sharing stories of strength, culture, and connection from First Nations communities. Here, we will shine a light on ideas and programs that contribute to reducing violence against women and children, and healing practices for all who have been affected by family violence. We will also explore the culture that keeps our mob strong, and what it means to our communities. Hosted by First Nations Advocates Against Family Violence CEO, Kerry Staines, Daa'ring Yarning is a safe space for storytelling, learning, healing, and community connection.

Kerry StainesWelcome to Daa'ring Yarning. I'd like to respectfully acknowledge the traditional custodians of the Goreng Goreng people where I am on today. I'd like to pay my respects to the elders past and present, for they hold the memories, traditions, the culture, and the hopes for Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people. I recognize their continuing connection to our land, water, and community. I'd also like to acknowledge all the communities where everyone is listening from today, and I hope you enjoy our podcast.

Kerry StainesToday we have Thelma Schwartz joining us, who is the Executive Director of Legal at the Queensland Indigenous Family Violence Legal Service, also known as QIFVLS in Queensland. Welcome, Thelma, to our podcast. (Thelma: Thank you so much, Kerry, for having me.) We're very excited to talk to you today. We're going to talk—we're going to talk a couple of things today. Um, firstly, I'll get Thelma to introduce, uh, where she's from and her country. Then we'll talk about one of the really innovative programs that QIFVLS is running—their cultural participation program that's been developed for members of the Queensland Police Service.

Kerry StainesIt's an incredible initiative that focuses on building cultural understanding and stronger relationships between police and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities. And at the end, we'll wrap up by learning a little more about what makes Thelma tick and the experience she brings to the family violence sector. So, let's get into it. Um, Thelma, can you first—let's start off with, tell us about your mob and your country.

Thelma SchwartzThank you so much for having me again on your program and your podcast. And I'd like to start by acknowledging that I'm here on the beautiful lands of the Gunggandji Mandingalbay Yidinji peoples here in Gimuy, or, um, Cairns, um, as it's otherwise known as. And I pay my respect to their elders, past, present, and emerging, and acknowledge, um, the elders, um, on the land—of the lands that you're on, and all of your listeners are on as well. Um, and I think that's really important for me in terms of grounding myself into country and space, and then reflecting on my lineage. So, when I look at me, so, my western name is Thelma, but, uh, my village name, um, I have a couple, but my technical one is Sinebeu, which means in my—my mother's tongue, um, "my girl" or, as our communities are kinship structures, it means "our girl."

Thelma SchwartzAnd through my mother's line, which is matrilineal, that lineage comes from, uh, not only my Papua New Guinean heritage, but also my Torres Strait Islander heritage. And when you hear the surname Schwartz, you think that's very Germanic, and yes, it is. Um, that heritage is from my father's people who came from Samoa when it was, uh—my god, back in the 1800s, um, they—they set out, um, and my big granny, Emma, well, Emma Coe, she's known in the history books ultimately as Queen Emma of Samoa. And as a very willful young lady, she decided, you know, "Stuff this. Stuff the world. Stuff your rules. I'm going to do this the way I want to, and I'm not going to be told how a woman should be. I will decide that on my own." And she set off on a boat to the wilds of Papua New Guinea, and she decided, as she did, that she was going to establish a plantation. And she established a thriving coffee plantation in Papua New Guinea.

Thelma SchwartzThat is my granny, Queen Emma of Samoa. And she did this pre-World War I. And my father's people have a lineage and a connection to Papua New Guinea, um, through the plantations in Rabaul, and then when they were forcibly moved off their lands into Madang, we were there, um, pre- and post-World War I, World War II. So, that's a little bit about, um, my mob. Um, it is a seafaring mob. You can hear the connection to Samoa, Papua New Guinea, Fiji, the Torres Strait, and, um, it goes all the way through into Micronesia. And that really reflects the passage of trade, um, which is through my mother's line what we did. My grandfather was, um, a man of the sea, um, not formally educated, but he still knew how to navigate those seas without a compass, simply relying on tides, stars, and wind.

Thelma SchwartzAnd I think, uh, some people would know him in this country as a bit of a Gadaiji man, medicine man. My grandfather also knew, um, how to use, um, our natural resources to heal and to cure people. So, that's the lineage I have, um, and what makes me tick. My clan is Gidamo, G-I-D-A-M-O, and it's no—it's not lost on me that I'm a Gidamo girl living in Gidamo world here in Gidamo in Cairns.

Kerry StainesIt's really powerful, and I've—I have heard you talk about your lineage before, and every time—every time you talk about it, I learn something new. So, thank you so much for sharing such a rich—a rich stories and history, and, you know, it might be another podcast all on its own, um, one day. But let's jump into a couple of the programs that QIFVLS are now doing. Can you tell me about the cultural participation program that you've developed and deliver for members of the Queensland Police Service? How did—how did this come about, this program?

Thelma SchwartzSo, the cultural training that we have been, um—we—we conducted with the police service here in Queensland was tailored for the Domestic and Family Violence, um, Vulnerable Persons Unit. And it was tailored to be delivered to the Queensland Police Service's, um, specialist 5-day course, which has been in operation for a number of years. And we were approached by the Queensland Police Service to think about, "Hey, you know, we would like your involvement as, um, an ACCO, an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Community Controlled Organization, to come in and help us build some cultural capability, particularly around how Queensland Police Service can better engage and interact with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander victim-survivors." Um, and, uh, I think from there, you know, when we were approached in 2022, '23, we started then developing, uh, a bit of a program of works. What is it that you want us to do? How do we start—where's your base level in terms of building cultural capability?

Thelma SchwartzAnd when I look at Queensland and why this came about, uh, we have to recognize that during this period, or leading up to this period, Queensland was on a bit of a transformational journey in relation to reckoning with acts of domestic and family violence. And I think the catalyst for that was, unfortunately, the deaths of Hannah Clarke and her three beautiful young children, um, which really forced the attention on policing, policing responses, and then the impact of—hang on, how do we actually better respond to non-physical acts of violence? And what about Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, um, who we know under-report but are unfortunately disproportionately represented within the criminal justice system? So, that's a bit of the—the back end. And I think it also came about—I mean, I had the legacy of the work, um, as a former taskforce member of the Women's Safety and Justice Taskforce that produced both Hear Her Voice reports that really launched Queensland into another reform journey, a transformation journey in relation to better responding to domestic and family violence.

Thelma SchwartzAnd then it also recommended that, um, there be an Independent Commission of Inquiry into police responses to domestic and family violence. So, I think this was, you know, uh, a way of the police service really demonstrating to the community and the sector, "We take our responsibilities highly, um, to also protect and promote the rights of victim-survivors, especially Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander victim-survivors, who we know we've always struggled historically, um, in relation to maintaining a positive relationship with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples more generally." So, that's a bit of a back end. And the program was co-designed, fully co-designed with Queensland, um, Police, which was wonderful in terms of where they were at and what they wanted us to bring in. And we developed the resource, which was a PowerPoint, and it was developed, uh, by Auntie Bino Toby, who was our former Case Management Practice Manager and Cultural Advice Manager. And I also facilitated some of the legal content in there as well.

Thelma SchwartzWe delivered—I'm just looking at the program—a total of 12 sessions. And we've also been asked to deliver two additional sessions this year. So, one will be delivered in November, and the last session will be delivered in February of next year. And we produced a PowerPoint, which was then turned into a handbook, um, by the Queensland Police Service so that participants of the specialist, uh, Domestic and Family Violence Vulnerable Persons Unit and high-risk teams had a takeaway tool, um, that they could continue to learn from and reflect upon.

Kerry StainesSo, I've got two questions for you, um, Thelma. So, one is, um, around the co-design. Who was involved from the Queensland Police side? And how, I guess, where did you start with that co-design, and what made it true co-design for this project? Because we hear a lot about co-design and it's not often really reflected in a really genuine way. So, what did you think was really genuine about this, and what did—what did it look like?

Thelma SchwartzI think in terms of co-design, um—and obviously with a contract and fulfilling, uh, the legal contractual obligations—Queensland Police Service said, "You know, we are wanting to have delivered a package of learning in relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples more generally, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture, um, more generally, and then interaction with policing more generally." So, that was a very broad canvas. So, how would you then develop it? So, what we then developed was, "Okay, this is how we interpret that request," and we put it into a document. So, we created, um, a very rough, uh, PowerPoint presentation saying, "This is where we're going," and we set it out. Now, originally, we thought we would have half a day to a day, uh, to deliver it, um—you know, because obviously with the content that we wanted to run through, which actually went back to, let's have a look at the country pre-colonization, let's then have a look at what occurred upon colonization, let's have a look at the impact of the ongoing legacy from colonization, particularly policing practices and the intertwined response of child protection services—the so-called care and protection era, um, which we know was not a care and protection era, it was more of a—of a protectorate era.

Thelma SchwartzAll of those baby steps that then led up to the first referendum that we had in the 1960s, which was the only successful referendum in relation to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. And then all the way into where we are now. So, that history. We then added in elements around, "Okay, what about gratuitous concurrence?" And for some listeners out there who aren't aware of gratuitous concurrence, so, this is a behavior that is quite unique to Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples and other peoples from, um, culturally and linguistically diverse backgrounds where there has been a colonial power, uh, within their countries. And it—it goes to never saying, um, "no" when a question is asked of you. So, for example, the question might be posed or the statement might be, "Well, the sun is a beautiful color of blue today, isn't it, Joe?" And Joe would say, "Yes, it is. I agree." Um, and we all know that the sun isn't a beautiful color of blue, it's actually yellow. But the response given, um, is in the context of Joe seeing that the person asking it is an authority figure, and that respect that's drilled down for the authority figure, and not disagreeing.

Thelma SchwartzSo, unpacking coercive control, then unpacking unconscious bias, particularly when unconscious bias filters into decision-making. And then, what do you do like, uh, when you have to go and conduct police business during sorry business, for example? And then unpacking, well, what is sorry business? Do you understand what sorry business is? So, all of these cultural norms, gender roles, you know, how do you work with an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander woman? And, uh, particularly in the context of retaliatory acts of violence, for example, that we understand, and that element of misidentification, which is one of those pivot points where we know policing in the past has got it wrong and in some cases still continue to get it wrong because they don't understand who the real victim is here, um, and that comes down to the—the manner in which police operate, which has always traditionally been on the basis of incident-based responses. And I know there's a movement and we've been working with police to say, "You've got to move away from that when you're now looking at the relationship as a whole and actually being more aware of your situation when you're going in."

Thelma SchwartzSo, all of those things we—we had a blank canvas to create, we put it all in, and obviously we've come up with a couple of hundred pages. Went back to QPS, it's like, "Okay, this is almost like a university lecture, um, that we're developing here. Let's skim it down," um, because they didn't know how much time we would need either. So, we were then working out the time, and then our time shrunk back from, let's say, half a day, we shrunk back to 2 hours, and that meant we had to condense the content into really bite-sized knowledge bits. And then, obviously, recognizing that, uh, students, um, who would be attending this, let's—let's remember the—the standard, um, attention span. Um, it's not going to be a 2-hour length attention span. We're all human beings. We're lucky to get 30 minutes to 45 at a max. So, that's how it came about, and it was with QPS input saying, "Hey, what about these things? Like, you know, why is it so important that we identify in QPrime, for example, that a person is Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander?" And then, you know, reflecting that if you capture the identification of someone very early at the outset, you can then make that supported warm referral to a non-legal support service to deal with all of those other issues. So, expanding the way our Vulnerable Persons Unit and high-risk teams think about supporting someone beyond just that, you know, uh, primary legal response.

Kerry StainesSo, it sounds like that co-design, you know, was very flexible in terms of coming to QIFVLS with your experience of what the barriers currently are, and what you've been experiencing in terms of access to justice for our people. So, they—they kind of, like you said, gave you an open canvas to bring forward and they were open to hear that and then to work with you. So, it's that willingness, I guess, to really sit and listen, um, to the people who've got the expertise and bringing that—that together.

Thelma SchwartzAbsolutely.

Thelma SchwartzAnd I think the respect, um, for us as subject matter experts was always front and center at this, and it was, uh, dealing, um, with, uh, very high-level, um, people within the police service, uh, negotiating this. Um, it was respectfully done, there was a respect for the expertise of what we do, uh, particularly as a Family Violence Prevention Legal Service, um, and Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Community Controlled Organization, um, knowing our community, working with our community. And I think that really assisted in, uh, the build of the product, um, ultimately. And working with, uh, the QPS, it—it felt like a big rush because obviously we had a—a timeframe to get this done in. (Kerry laughs) And you always feel the pressure of that pressure cooker going when we've got to deliver within certain time and then being happy with the content. But then you wonder, "Oh my god, am I going to have impact here because we've—we had to shrink what we originally did right down to 2 hours, and it's like, am I doing justice to the content?" Um, and I think at the very beginning, you know, when I delivered these sessions, it was always, "What we're touching on with you is—it could be the subject of a university degree on its own. However, it's a continuous journey of learning, and this is something that, you know, we wanted to impress, um, upon the participants that, you know, I—I'm not an expert in cultural safety and cultural awareness, even though I'm a—I'm a woman of culture. I learn every day." Um, and that was important to impress upon the participants from the police service as well. Like, I'm not an expert when I go out into Aboriginal country, given I'm a saltwater woman. I'm respectful and I need to know who to go to when I'm going into country and what the appropriate protocols are.

Kerry StainesThere's some great themes that regardless of when police are accessing communities, you know, protocols to follow that can be generalized in some—one way or another.

Thelma SchwartzThey are. And I think that was really important to let them know that this is just the beginning of a journey, like, you start here but then you specialize with it depending on the community, the country that you're on, because each country has its own nuances and diversity, and that's, I think—I think that is a reflection of the—the richness of the tapestry of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures that exist in our country, um, and really reinforcing that, continue and to—to actually enjoy your learning journey.

Kerry StainesAnd value curiosity, you know, curiosity, learn, ask questions. Um, don't be afraid to ask those questions.

Thelma SchwartzExactly. Don't be afraid to ask those questions. One of the other questions I had for you was you talked about, um, the 12 sessions and then the handbook. Where to from here? Is there going to be more sessions or what's the next phase? Is this program going to continue with, um, the Queensland Police Force?

Thelma SchwartzWe hope it does. I mean, we know from the Commission of Inquiry into police responses, a couple of the recommendations—there were 78 recommendations made in total—were that the Queensland Police Service continue its training, um, and capability uplift and build in relation to, um, working better with Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples, peoples from culturally and linguistically diverse communities, um, especially. So, we hope there is. Um, I've indicated that, uh—originally, the 12 sessions were delivered, with the last session due to be delivered or delivered on May—in May of 2025. Uh, we've now since been approached to deliver two additional sessions, so one this year in November and the last one currently in February of next year. So, we're hoping to see that this is an ongoing relationship, uh, of further work. Um, I note though that this course was delivered to the 5-day specialist course. There is a 3-day generalist course of training, um, that's offered to all um, members within the Queensland Police Service, where the commissioned and non-commissioned officers. And I'm not too sure what level of cultural training, um, is made available there or if others are developing or currently contributing to that. So, you know, we'll wait and see.

Kerry StainesWell, a big shout out to QPS, let's get some fund—some more funding to keep this rolling. (Thelma: Absolutely.) And, you know, the work that was developed in partnership with the Domestic and Family Violence Vulnerable Persons Unit at QPS, that was professional, it was respectful, absolutely enjoyed that collaboration and that partnership, and I truly believe it was a true partnership. Yeah, it's great to hear when, um, things do start to work well. And, um, Kerry, I should mention the cultural training we developed for Queensland Police actually received the Commissioner's Outstanding Award in 2023, which was such a proud moment for our whole team.

Kerry StainesThat's incredible recognition. And I think that really shows how much impact your program has had. Okay, Thelma, let's move into a little bit about you and hearing a little bit more about you personally. And I guess, what's—what's drawn you to the FVPLS sector? And maybe if you can think of a proud—one of the proudest moments you've had so far? So, two questions there.

Thelma SchwartzI've been on a bit of a journey. When I look back at my career within the law, um, I am a qualified legal practitioner. I've been practicing for over 26 years, um, and that's come about really quickly. And, you know, I have these moments when I kind of sit back and I realize, "Hang on, what have I been doing and how long have I been doing it for?" And it hit me, it's been over 26 years. It took me by shock a couple of weeks ago when they celebrated my 10 years with QIFVLS. (Kerry laughs) We had a morning tea. I thought, "Hey, we're just having a morning tea, this is fantastic. I haven't brought lunch, I can get lunch for free today, great." And then all of a sudden it was, "Happy 10 years!" I'm like, "Oh god." (Kerry laughs) Where did that come from? So, the things that sneak up—up on you, particularly when you're having fun. And when I look at, uh, the journey, so I started out as a commercial, um, lawyer after spending some time as a Supreme Court Justice's associate. I did my articles, a clerkship, at the old Central Australian Aboriginal Legal Aid Service, at CAALAS, as it was then. And then I jumped into commercial litigation for over 7 and a half years.

Thelma SchwartzMy heart, though, wasn't in it, and my soul wanted something more, um, and I longed to feel like I was giving back. I then jumped across to, um, criminal defense work at the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Legal Service, at ATSILS, here in Cairns. And I was there for close to 9 and a half years defending men, women, and children, um, across our Far North Queensland courts, including up to the Queensland Court of Appeal. Um, and I loved it. I loved doing that work. I loved being on circuit court. But what really wore me out and broke my heart was representing children, moms, dads, grandparents, and I wasn't making a dent. I wasn't achieving what I felt was justice more broadly. Yes, I was achieving individual justice, but not broader, breaking systemic chains.

Thelma SchwartzLooking around, I then saw the opportunity that arose at QIFVLS when they were looking for a principal, uh, solicitor back in 2015. And I thought, "You know what? I'm going to give this a go because I don't feel fulfilled anymore. I feel empty." And part of the reason I had been at ATSILS, um, was really trying to understand my dad. Um, I grew up in a very violent household, uh, and that was my father's violence against my mom. And I needed to understand from a criminal defense perspective—and this is—it probably sounds really perverse to your listeners—why my father did what he did, because it never made sense to me. And I spent a lot of time representing men, um, primarily, who use violence within their relationships against women and children.

Thelma SchwartzAnd I think that was part of a—a healing journey for me. And I reached the end of that healing journey with ATSILS, and it was really time now to work in supporting victim-survivors. And I wanted to do that because I'd been running from it for so long. I tried to hide the shame and the stigma of growing up in a violent household. I was so ashamed of it, um, and I felt that stain on me that I couldn't, you know, uh—I couldn't break free of it. But coming to QIFVLS and working with victim-survivors has been one of the most fulfilling things I have ever done in my life. The content is hard, yes, absolutely, but the joy, um, that you can bring to someone gives me hope, um, and it makes me feel at peace. And, you know, that's taken me a long time. That's close to almost 30 years of working as a bloody lawyer to actually find some peace. So, that's why I'm here and why I love doing what I do here.

Kerry StainesThank you so much, um, for sharing that story. And it goes to show, um, how as individuals, we have to take our own journeys, and we're not always conscious that we're taking our own journeys of healing. But I think sharing that with other people and people hearing it helps break down the shame and to understand that, you know, families go through all sorts of things, and the sooner we can reach out and get support, the sooner, um, it can be managed. It's not something to feel shame about, um, and there's certainly organizations out there that are willing to support and help you understand what some of the—the decisions might be made and what's out there to support you. But thank you, um, for sharing. And certainly, I think you are having a huge impact, um, not only with—you know, it's the ripple effect as well, not only with individuals who can talk to other individuals, but through legislation and reform. You're involved in a lot of those areas, which is having systemic change. So, you should feel really proud of where you've come, um, and we're certainly proud to work with you, um, in everything that we do. So, thank you, Thelma.

Kerry StainesI just have one last question for you. And that is, um, how do you—how do you walk in culture each day and also in a mainstream world? I guess, what is it that—how do you balance those—those things? We often talk about walking in two worlds. How do you keep your spirit connected to country and to who you are?

Thelma SchwartzI think this has been a long journey for me. Um, when I first started out in the law, um, I felt the pressure to hide my indigeneity. It's very high—hard to hide it when you're a woman of color. (Kerry laughs) But I certainly felt that pressure. Uh, I felt that pressure that the—um, what a perfect lawyer looks like is not a lawyer that falls back into their culture. It—you know, culture has nothing to do um, with lawyering, as well as emotion. It shouldn't be there. And that sounds really quite cold. And for a long time in that journey, I subverted that. I didn't lean into my culture. I—I had this—sounds really nuts, but, you know, I had to be like the Ally McBeals. Ally McBeal was really huge, um, in that period when I was coming through commercial lit, um, and LA Law. That was what everyone looked like. This is what a lawyer should look like, um, and I needed to—to fit that image. And I was miserable. I was absolutely miserable, um, pretending to be something that I wasn't. And it reminded me of growing up in my household where my father certainly did not want my sisters and I, or even my mother, speaking our native tongue, celebrating my mother's culture, um, and indigeneity. I felt quite suppressed and I didn't feel real.

Thelma SchwartzSo, the only first time that I started to feel real, being able to bring culture into my workspace, was when I left private practice and went to ATSILS, um, and working in an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Community Controlled Organization where I could start to feel, "Hey, this is how I should be. I should be able to celebrate and lean into my culture as a strength, um, as a legal practitioner. It is artificial to divorce it, um, from who I am as a professional. And you know what? It's actually making me sick." And I think it actually helped me, um, in my, uh, profession working with and representing Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples. I mean, it got to a point, you know, where people would be ringing up going, "Hey, I just want that black lawyer there, that Thelma." (Kerry laughs) You know, it was lovely, but it's like, I can't be representing everyone from Far North Queensland, (Kerry laughs) which was lovely in itself, but it was too much. But, um, because you brought your true self.

Thelma SchwartzAnd with QIFVLS, and I believe our sister FVPLSes, we bring our true selves to our workplaces. Um, I shine and I connect to culture and I encourage that with my workforce. Do not suppress who you are, do not suppress your culture, your culture is a strength, and it is going to assist you in connecting to people because that's real, um, and that's what you walk in before you come to work, it's what you walk in when you're at home, when you go to the shops. That's what I want because people want people, they need people to connect with, particularly to trust when you're trying to help them, um, dealing probably with some of the most isolating moments that a human being can ever go through in terms of being a victim of domestic, family, and sexual violence. So, that's how I am. Now, I'm very loud and proud about my culture, I will wear it, I will yarn it till the cows come home, and I certainly encourage all the younger ones who are coming through, don't try and fit a mold that isn't you, you be you. Because you remember what your old people went through and what my old people went through for me to be here, and why you're here. Shine in your culture because this is the only way our culture will continue. And I'm grateful for the professional skills that I have and everything else that I've learned through that Western lens, but I will never subvert my culture again, not for anyone or not for anything.

Kerry StainesIt's such a powerful connection. All right, well, I think we'll wrap it up there, Thelma. Thank you. (Thelma: No, thank you.)

Outro AudioTo learn more about QIFVLS and the work they do, head to their website at www.qifvls.org.au. If you or anyone you know is experiencing family violence, call 1800RESPECT for a referral to a service in your area. Thank you for listening to our Daa'ring Yarning podcast. If you found something valuable in today's conversation, please follow, rate, and share this episode with a friend who'd enjoy it, too. Until next time, take care.